I read a lot of posts asking how different aspects, like combat and magic... magick?, of Elder Scrolls games should be handled in future installments and there's always at least one person who has to chime in with the ubiquitous "well, I think they should go back to how Morrowind did it." Maybe I'm just too familiar with Oblivion but I really have to disagree on this. As someone who is trying to play through Morrowind right now (after playing Oblivion) I can safely say that I dislike everything else about this game other than the creature design and the plot. The only thing that should ever make the transition over from Morrowind to Skyrim or Bretonville or Orcapalooza is the genuine feeling of being lost in an alien land with it's own strange culture. This is the only aspect of the game that has kept me playing it because the gameplay itself is pretty horrible.

Let me guess you liked the lockpicking minigame?

...and the lack of spears, thrown weapons, crossbows, the complete disregard for how the Imperial City had always been depicted, the level-scaling?
Just dug how every highwayman ever would eventually just have the best equipment he could?
How freaking peasants would end up with Daedric weapons?

You're right, definitely.

They should take things from all past TES games. People just mention Morrowind more now because Oblivion was the last one, so they focus on what MW did better than Oblivion as an example of how things could be better for Skyrim.

Let me guess, you liked the crappy combat, non-regenerating magicka, lack of skill perks, no quest compass, failing casting spells, dumber AI, and useless weapons like spears and crossbows?

See how that works? Both games have their flaws and I don't ever remember saying that Oblivion was perfect. The point of posting this was just to say that the designers should never go back to how an older game did things for the sake of nostalgic players. Morrowind just happened to be a great example because everyone here treats it like some kind of untouchable jewel no future game could ever improve upon.

That's the thing though. Stop focusing on what's already been done and try improving upon it by coming up with something new. If they were to "take things from all past TES games" then you have no room to make drastic improvements, you're just polishing up mechanics that were fundamentally flawed to begin with and distancing yourself from new players who haven't had ten other Elder Scrolls games to get used to the contrived, outdated mechanics older players have come to accept because they can't think of anything better without going backwards.

Actually, yes I did like the non-regenerating magicka, lack of skill perks, no quest compass, fizzled spells.

Especially the lack of a compass. I seriously hated that in Oblivion. NPC gives me vague directions, BAM! Suddenly I know exactly where to go, right?

I'll give you there were definitely a few things Morrowind had that Oblivion actually improved upon. The inclusion of a physics engine, for example. I personally liked the roll-to-hit method of Morrowind, but it just doesn't really translate all that well in a first-person RPG as well as it does an isometric one.

EDIT: Let me take that back partially on skill perks. Some of those were pretty nice, and it was actually a pretty good addition. I'd like to see those make a return.

It's neat that you liked all that garbage but some people (like me) don't. The whole point to a sequel or new installment of a game series is to find out both the "Yous" and "Mes" will like and incorporate it into something new. If you keep relying on older models of doing things then eventually Two Worlds will become a competent game because they kept changing and evolving while the Elder Scrolls stayed the same.

And it's neat that you like having your hand held by a compass.

If they're trying to find things the 'yous' and 'mes' are both going to like, it seems like they'll be pretty damned hard pressed.
If they want to keep from alienating a large portion of their fanbase, they'll make some efforts to bring back some familiar ground.
I really don't see what's so wrong with spell failure, limited magicka, etc.

Seriously, without some limits caster's just too overpowered and kinda ruins the game.
Especially with how Oblivion was level-scaled. Blech.

Im going to agree with Povuholo here. There is many things in Morrowind I liked, namely the alien atmosphere, different qualities of lockpicks, all the different weapon and armor types and thrown weapons. Im going to agree with you though on the lock picking and compass. I thought Morrowinds system was stupid. So attaching a lock pick like a weapon then pointing at a chest and it magically opens? Cause that makes sense! At least with Oblivions you felt you were actually picking the lock... And though i believe the compass could have been implemented better, I did use it occasionally when I got stuck. Now if they used it only for very hard to find things, like small objects in dungeons that would have been ok, but having it go to every single quest stage was overkill with it. Level scaling was.... annoying, not gonna get into it. I'm surprised fast travel hasnt arisen in this convo yet, seems to me to be the biggest debate between Morrowind and Oblivion.

Morrowind had fast travel, it was in the form of Silt Striders, boats, the Mage's Guild's teleportation service, and the Mark and Recall spells. A much more immersive method than "Well, it's on my map so...oh yeah, already there."

I'll agree that it just looked odd in Morrowind whenever you went to pick a lock, but the minigame was just a bad idea, it takes away from your character, y'know? Now it's you doing it, not him. Maybe having an animation, but keeping basically to Morrowind's method would work better?

A bit of variety in the weapon department is not a bad thing. Different weapons for different tastes, you know.

I do agree they should always aim for something new in the next game, but also keep an eye on what they did in the previous games to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past.

This just became another "Morrowind versus Oblivion" thread.

Didn't see that coming?

You know what would be a sweet fast travel system? Keep Oblivions "Map Markers" but include a cost in that! You choose a location and it costs a certain amount depending on how far away your going, the weight your carrying and the time it takes.

Im gonna disagree with keeping that part of Morrowinds lock pick system. Its to bad we can combine having a lick pick minigame with anims and different lock pick qualities

Yeah, that would be better, at least. Something like a fantasy taxi service. I'd say traveling merchant/peasant carts you could snag a ride on for a fee would be nice, but I know people would [censored] so much about there never being enough of them.
Then we'd see mods that just add way too many.XD

A lockpicking minigame I could agree with:

Essentially your security skill and the quality of your pick (+the type of handware you have on?) would effect two variables. These would be the 'handling' of the pick, which both your skill and the pick would determine, which would essentially be how responsive the controls would be for the minigame, and 'durability which would be determined solely by the lockpick, but the security skill perks could be to lessen the damage the pick would take whenever you make a mistake. Also, don't show a side-view of the lock mechanism, instead have a circular diagram or somesuch. Maybe do what Thief: Deadly Shadows had.

Well, there's a reason Shivering Isles was better received by Morrowind fans than vanilla Oblivion. I think we can all agree with the sentiment that Morrowind's world is just more...intriguing. That's what concerns me about Skyrim as a location...the potential to go either direction is there. Personally I see no reason for Bethesda to do another gameworld like vanilla Oblivion...even they've admitted they were on a LotR kick at the time. Honestly just...incredibly..boring.

I think most people when they say "do it like Morrowind did it"...they aren't asking for absolutely specific things or a rehashing of things we've already seen...they're just asking for Morrowind's depth in areas other than combat and graphics. And that's not such a horrible thing, right?

I'm one of those that thinks Morrowind is superior to Oblivion in just about every category, but I'm also the rare person that thinks Morrowind is superior to Daggerfall too (maybe because I actually played Daggerfall :whistling:), so while my preference is that Skyrim be most like Morrowind, that doesn't mean I can't see some redeeming qualities from Oblivion. I firmly believe Skyrim will be a great game. And I have no doubt it will have a little too much Oblivion for my tastes. And while all of this may be meaningless until we actually play the game...I will say that my opinion of Oblivion has softened over the years and I won't see Skyrim's design as being such a... betrayal (seems odd to even consider that term now) which is honestly how I felt about Oblivion the first few years... :facepalm:

What if they did a fast travel system that involved random encounters, or had some kind of health consequences to reflect the likelihood that you encountered hostile creatures/bandits while you were traveling? And maybe those consequences would depend on your attributes, so that the health of the higher-level player would be less affected because he/she is more experienced and able to handle such encounters? I personally like having the convenience of fast travel but I also wouldn't mind if it were more realistic.

Random encounters at least would be nice. It'd keep it from feeling so freaking cheap.

Thank you for offering a well reasoned response. I absolutely agree with you on this. Ultimately, a game's atmosphere and plot are always going to be what ages the best. I think Morrowind is a great example of this. It's worked so well that I think the people who hold the game as the ultimate Elder Scrolls game have maybe forgotten about or learned to accept the less spectacular parts of the game, like the combat, compass, etc. Maybe they've some how fooled themselves into thinking that these things are an integral part of what made Morrowind great, when clearly, they're just gameplay mechanics that haven't aged as well as the rest of the game.

My argument is that no new game that relies on outdated things that could clearly be improved upon is ever going to take you by surprise the way Morrowind did because it'll be using the same old features. Learn from the past but know when you need to make improvements as well.

Personally, I'm not that tolerant with awkward gameplay mechanics/balance. I learned to mod so I could change/balance everything I didn't like about the game.

You liked the roll-to-hit method too?! I thought others didn't exist! ((Not being sarcastic!)

You did NOT just dis spears! This means WARRRRR!!!! :gun: :slap: :angry:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know I did.



Again, I'm only speaking for myself here, but I think it has less to do with nostalgia and more to do with Bethesda's tendency to 'overcompensate' for a previous title's shortcomings. If something about the game is not perfect, but is otherwise sound, then they ought to tweak that aspect of the game in order to refine it and make it better. Instead, in many cases they have opted to correct past mistakes / flaws by overhauling whatever it was that didn't work quite right. That's okay if the system is completely irreparable, but that is seldom the case. And, as we have seen, the new system often comes with problems / mistakes / flaws of its own. In short, I think that in some cases, the developers should go back to the way previous titles did things.

Sure did.

I don't absolutely hate the new way of doing it, figured it would happen eventually, but...Idunno. It just feels empty when I hit, now.
Now, if the enemy would block and attempt to dodge more, then it would be better, y'know?

Combats in Morrowind always made me angry. I hated that silly "fffft" sound when your see your sword go right between the eyes of your opponent, normally spreading his brain everywhere, and figure out you missed him. I mean... that's rude.
Dice-Roll combat for me has nothing to do in a first person computer game.
That feature was created for paper RPG, because they DIDN'T have any computer or other way to calculate whether you fight good or aim like a paraplegic crab. Now that you CAN actually jump to a high point, grab a bow, aim for the head and fire all by yourself in a few seconds, there is no need to add a fr*&@ing roll to tell if you managed that. Your own dexterity as a player should be enough. You missed him, you missed him. Improve your playing. But missing a target when you actually didn't sounds stupid.

In the case of dice-rolling combat, I would have preferred a baldur's gate-like combat, automatic, where I don't just have the illusion that sweeping my sword in certain ways is changing anything.


And I liked the lockpicking minigame =D It gets boring at a certain time, but I REALLY prefer that than spamming my E key waiting for a message telling me I've successfully unlocked the door.
I know it's a rpg blablabla you have to rely on your caracs, but I prefer them to be near invisible to me.

Noticing that I jump higher or lower depending on my carac is ok, noticing that I miss someone when I just hit it right in the head feels kinda lame.
Oblivion was cool with the "you have learned new moves thanks to your high axe skill". But it was clearly not used the right way, as all the moves where the same with every frigging weapon.






So yeah, for me characs should be more like Oblivion, but greatly improved.
For example, let's keep that your bow skill make your arrows go straight, or not, but by adding an animation with that. I want to see my character's hand go floppy and fire like a marshmallow, before seeing the arrow go to london instead of your target's heart. Not just: "fire, arrow goes straight, hit the tar... OOPS, sorry but no."
It could also tell how long you can keep your bow drawn without being exhausted for example. (don't know if it's the right term, I'm not english speaking...)