I don't disagree that choice is good, however I disagree that having things imbalanced vs having them properly balanced somehow negates or harms choice. If anything, having things better balanced enhances choice, as there would not be any overpowered combination you would have to actively avoid to continue enjoying the game normally. There would not be a choice or combination of optimal decisions that render others obsolete or superfluous. You would ideally, never run into a situation where you can be told or shown that your choice was "wrong" or inferior.

Point is - you can stop it being broken yourself, without adversely or potentially adversely affecting anyone else.

You're creating/risking creating issues when there's a much easier fix available - don't exploit it. I mean, when you get down to it, the game doesn't force any of these choices/actions on you, the player chooses to do it.


Like I said already in this thread, I basically can do this as a caster with not a single perk in sneak. I need a weapon, the 'hide' button and ONE spell. That's it. Broken? Damned yes. Do I need it changed? Not really, I just don't abuse it.



Edit:

Think about it, the complaint is about a synergy of skills/abilities which perform far greater than the sum of their parts - nerfing the parts breaks them for EVERYONE not abusing the synergy. Either find a way to target it specifically so it affects the synergy only and doesn't affect the component parts, or leave it alone.

It would be like me posting a "drop weapon damage across the board because my orc using berserk is too good and he does too much damage" thread.

Collateral damage is to be avoided at all costs in balancing, ever more so in a single player experience.

Na, if that's the scenario you described. Everything would be about the same level in terms of power. That would mean randomly throwing perks with a monkey holding the control would be the same as someone purposely choosing specific perks to make the toon that* much more effective.

Which shouldn't happen.

It's like in a game that's similar to sims, you can play a Bill Gate like character alongside with characters like a mail delivery man and a high school teacher.
And you complained that Bill Gates is OP, he can buy 99% of the stuff in the sims world right from start!!
(hypothetical samples, but I think you can catch what I am saying)

You don't need to choose it. If you choose it, why complain?

Like the PC console, you can insta get 1 bil gold. Doesn't mean that the price of every item should go up because people can easily access to gold via a command. Nor should they take out the command. If people want to play that way, go ahead, they are ruining their own experience, not mine.

In this case of OP perks combo, if you are picking all those perks, you are the one that making the game too easy. Not developer, nor any other player, nor the game itself. Why should everyone cater to your* style again?

Ideally you balance without collateral damage. This is difficult. In the system they've already put in place for Skyrim, even more difficult, as it's something that really needs to be considered from the ground up. I certainly agree that fiddling with individual things here and there is usually going to go poorly.

I'm usually not a fan of the 'self-limitation' argument because it really does feel artificial and less fun for some people (and nothing we can do about it, it just feels less fun and you can't argue me into having my brain work a different way). But with stealth, it's such an incredibly simple thing: just don't use invis. This is not like removing giant chunks of content from the game (crafting).

I don't get it.

OP uses invisibility spell and enchanted boots to muffle sound and now complains that no one can detect him? :facepalm:
Last time I checked that was the idea behind it...

Now, I tend to agree that the sneak-multiplier on daggers is too high and that sneak behaves erratically at times, but that's about it.
As for the rest, let's summarize:
Investing heavily in stealth, including perks I guess.
Using an exploit to get two otherwise unique powerful weapons (the daggers).
Using a combination of magic spells (invisibility) and highly enchanted gear (muffled boots) to further reduce chance for detection.
Using another item (the gloves for double sneak damage), an item that many players, even those playing a "thief" character will probably never find.

Congrats, you have used about every possibility available to make playing your character easier, combined them and now complain that it is to easy...
Doesn't sound broken to me, the balance should be around an average character, not around one that uses every possible exploit and enhancement.

Seriously, I simply don't get why people try hard to break the game (although I wouldn't exactly call this aspect broken) only to then complain that they have broken the game...

I wholeheartedly agree, this is actually the first game I remember where I'm trying not to go too OTT.

But, to use my situation/discovery as the example, asking the devs to mess around with everything because calm>stab>calm>stab is 'exploitable' is a bit weak, so I try not to do it too much and it's not really that big a deal to me.

Yup, everyone is different and that's the main drive behind my attitude of: don't nerf because a given player/or player group find it too easy but doing a specific combination of skills/events [when it's a single player sandbox].

There should never be useless perks to begin with. The fact that lockpicking and pickpocket are completely worthless outside of being chosen as novelty options or out of curiosity or ignorance is a shame in my opinion.

In order for there to be OP comboes, someone had to have deliberately left such options in as an oversight due to lack of testing and balancing the way affect or otherwise modify each other. The issue arises when a baseline is determined, and future content affects you base on what is determined from it.

Through polling, or other means, when designing future content meant to challenge the, what would likely be assumed max or near max level players...clearly it would be a mistake to balance around the OP characters right? But what if it is determined that either the players who partake of such issues are a larger part of the baseline through their sampling, or that by allowing such things to remain in the game, it is fine to balance around them because in theory, there is nothing stopping someone from choosing those abilities?

The issue arises when content designed to challenge these "godplayers" obliterate those of us who choose to remain as mere mortals. On the other hand, what if they make future content too easy, an appeal to the lowest common denominator when the majority may very well be overpowered, they would stand to gain much criticism either way, either for the content being impossible or mind numbingly easy.

"Don't like it, don't use it" is asking the player to take charge of what is allowed when it's meant to be the game/developer's job.

Players should always be trying their hardest to get through a game, using the best gear, best spell etc. Inventing handicaps for challenge is merely a bandaid fix, and basically lets developers get away with making poorly balanced games.

A game developer should design content like they are playing chess against the players who utilize their content and enjoy making players earn what they get.

First of all, you're not playing a "class", you're playing a character who has specialised in a lot of the stealthier abilities. Secondly, it's not overpowered, because this is a single player RPG, you are a relatively high level, you have poisons and enchantments and special gloves on and you are playing the game the way it was designed to be for your abilities - in stealth and attacking from behind. Congratulations, you are smart.

I play a duel wielding warrior in heavy armour. Since level 20 I have been one hitting most guys on master level because I have specialised in one handers, heavy armour and alchemy. I team this with the Elemental Fury Dragon Shout, and with my duel wielding ability, my duel maces strike the target on a double handed power attack roughly six times. Add to this my poisons, and my specialization in maces, and I can either stagger or paralyze the target very easily within my six to eighteen flurry hits. I have increased my stamina exponentially to allow me four double handed power attacks in a stamina bar, and I have stamina potions on hand just in case. I am powerful, but I am not overpowered, I am smart.

If I was wandering around at level two with an iron dagger one shotting Draugr Deathlords, I would be overpowered.

Skyrim is about as balanced as a see saw, one way or the other your never going to end up with an equilibrium, only either one side or the other, weak or strong. But then how well can you determine if the balance if perfect?

Games tend to be designed and balanced at average players, not people who google the crap out of every aspect of the metagame and tweak that one last DPS out of their character just because they want to be 100% most powerful thing possible.

Everything about this is wrong. This is not an MMO. This is not Multiplayer. This is a single-player Sandbox RPG. It is NOT the developer's job to take charge. It is Their job to Give you options. It is Your job to Pick options. Players don't always have to strive to get straight through and finish the game, find the and use the best equipment and what not. This is a Sandbox game. It is not about balance, it is about choice. This is a single-player RPG. There is no playing against the developers to work to get what you want. There is only you playing against yourself to get what you want.

When it comes to changing the game yourself or using a mod that someone else made to fix it for you, then by all means, good for you. But when you want to take away choices from other people to play the single-player experience that they want, then you're just being selfish.

For the love of God would people please learn that there is a difference between

"BROKEN"

and

"NOT VERY GOOD/NOT TO MY TASTE/SLIGHTLY TRICKY TO DO" etc.

I would take these threads much more seriously if they could.

Grats, you have a different vision of what makes a fun game that he does. Neither of you are right. Both of you will lobby Bethesda for what you want, because you both are selfish and both have a right to ask for what you want. There is nothing wrong with that.

I don't understand how people still argue about this. Everyone has fun in different ways. Everyone's brain works differently. Self limitation is not fun for a lot of people. You cannot tell those people "hey bro, I think self-limitation is fine, so because I think it's fine everyone else must think it's fine". No. The way they have fun does not magically change to the way you have fun.

I want the devs to create a balanced game because that maximizes my fun and maximizes my options. Your brain works differently. We will both lobby Bethesda for what we want, and I hope my side wins.

PS: The argument that balancing the game destroys the fun of people who don't care about balance makes no sense at all. The only downside about balance is that it takes a lot of work and effort on the devs part.

First of all, Elder Scrolls games by definition are better described as an open world single player rpg. A sandbox would be more like scribblenauts, gmod, or minecraft.

Balance means that the stuff the developers put into a game gets used by the players. This is a good thing because it means they didn't waste their time designing 300 separate pieces of armor just to have the players use only 5 of them. Or design a whole ton of cool spells for the players to just use one of them..when they discover that there is no choice, and that really there is only one or a few choices that are truly optimal...they have failed to properly balance the game, and our options

If you die in 1 hit to everything on the easiest difficulty setting, that isn't balanced. If you have 100 sneak and all stealth perks and they don't work, that is bugged or imbalanced. The way it is now, with warrior and rogue type gameplay being so far above spellcasting is imbalanced, and you don't fix it by making spellcasting just as overpowered. You fix it by bringing the things that are out of whack down to a reasonable level, otherwise you have to rebalance all the enemies as well.

It's so typical that only when the imbalance benefits you, that you people come out of the woodwork to hypocritically defend something that cannot be defended.

All games, singleplayer or otherwise need balance. Denying that is folly.

And then of course after I criticize one side, the other side comes back with the same silliness.

For a lot of people, singleplayer games don't need balance. They have fun just fine without balance. That's why they deny it, and it isn't folly, because it is absolutely true, for them.

Both sides, get this through your heads: you are different people that have fun in different ways. Give your opinions to the game devs and hope they listen to you, but don't try to tell other players that how they have fun is 'wrong' and how you have fun is 'right', because that is absolutely ludicrous.

I like my stealth character. Not very good at combat, but if he gets ya from behind watch out!

Sure, until the lack of balance tilts in the opposite direction that does not benefit them. They then whine and moan hypocritically about it, or sell the game. All games need balance, maybe not absolute balance if that is even possible.....but there still is a need for at least a basic level of it.

That. I play normally and haven't thought my thief was OP. I have a mage and warrior as well.

-sigh- I will agree with you on that last bit, and I'm sorry for coming off as a bit my side extremist, but I know there are people out there that want to run around and be OP, just for the sake of it. I have a few friends that have used invisibility, and like it. I have friends that like to roleplay a little with their characters and make "Grand" appearances in town by becoming visible and slaying someone, get yelled at by the guard and then laugh as they simple walk away under the "invisibility cloak". I'm just trying to be fair to them. They can play it the way they want to, and I respect that.

It's not so much a problem that they should fix it now, but rather, they should've fixed it before release. It's been out now, and making sudden changes like these would probably cause more rage threads on the forums. Somethings I can understand need fixing, like the glitch for getting two Blades of Woe, and a better detection AI would be nice and all. But to include balances in a patch that take away from the features that have already been established isn't fair to everyone. Balances can be good and can be bad. Forcing it upon people just so they can experience stability and unglitched gameplay isn't the way. If they made it so the the balances were seperate from the patch, such as an additional download or a mod or whatever, then fine. It gives us the option, and I'm all for that.

But that doesn't mean that this shouldn't have been fixed before hand. If all the changes people have been asking for were implemented before release, then great, we probably wouldn't be having this particular argument right now (maybe we'd be having an argument about why Dark Elves look so serious or something). It would've been fine, but now that the game is out, the work and effort required to make these changes would only just delay the needed stability patches and Creation Kit. These types of changes are slightly too drastic to be applied now to teh whole population base. It would've been better if it was patched with the balances within the first week of release.

I wouldn't personally mind better sneak detection/invisibility handling, but I don't want to force my wants onto other people. Hopefully the modding community can do something about it. We'll just have to hound Bethesda to do better next time.

And there is your problem OP~ It's hard to argue a point when your point isnt 100% valid... Come back after not using the console commands and play on master, then tell us the results~

it's interesting when you read a post from a player who maxed smithing, enchanting, and alchemy, and then complains the game is boring even at the master level.

I'm leveling a thief/assassin who only gets better gear if/when it drops.

I may do some enchanting for my mage, but not a lot. Just want to see how that works out.

It was already stated, in this same thread, that you can do that with an unmodified game by pickpocketing Astrid, and then gaining the second one normally.

Yeah, increasing sneak that high is somewhat pointless, I'm actually thinking about enchanting something else on my boots (though I will keep muffle, that dual enchant perk is pretty much amazing).. probably a resist rate.. I'm actually considering using the console to remove 2 of my perks in sneak and putting them elsewhere because my sneak is a bit TOO strong atm at 97 with 3/5 sneak perk and 45% sneak boots. It's a bit overkill.

Though it is funny catching dragons napping.

When you max dmg up, and dmg taken down, then slide the setting to max dmg given, and lower dmg taken, you basically did nothing It's xbox 'hold my hand story' mentality. I'm working on trying to get my PC to display 3D images, so when my niece comes over we can experience the creativity of being together again, and broadcast that on a 3D screen with glasses. That way, she'll understand why dad was sad, and why glasses can't fix everything.

It's kind of sad, but I expect RPG gamers to know better than use +this and +that, -this and -that, when they are the same thing as selecting a difficulty. I can't respect a man that ups his dmg and lowers dmg taken, then ups the dmg taken, and dmg received, then just svcks at rpgs

ok Confucius
remember today is the tomorrow that you worried about yesterday old wise one........but back on subject, skyrim seems perfectly balanced to me, i still have some hard fights and as i am playing an assassin the only times i have easy battles is when i get the drop on an enemy by my sneak attack, and thats what we do
i honestly think some people just wanna find any ammunition to use against skyrim that they can gather, be it too hard or too easy, too small or too huge, etc etc
look through these forums and you see people complaining about both ends of the spectrum! crazy really as one mans junk is another mans treasure.........................