I wanted to get my rant on again,but then i read this and i can keep it simple and say

WORD

Pretty much this. If they make it so the game is still really challenging even after using every single exploit available, that means it will be nearly impossible for those not using every possible exploit, and everyone will have to have the exact same cookie cutter build just to have a chance. That sounds pretty lame to me.

I'm sorry the game isn't as challenging as you had hoped, but you guys are in the extreme minority.


If anything is OP about sneak, it's the fairly poor detection AI. You can shoot someone with an arrow, sneak around the corner, and after they don't see you they'll just say "Huh, guess I was just hearing things".....with an arrow sticking out of their face....

There should be optional content that is challenging for min-maxers though.

Every RPG needs a Ruby Weapon.

Simple answer is, stealth should give all the damage perks, but never making sneaking as easy as just being able to move around freely with disregard to sight, light and all the things you had to pay attention to at level 1.

If you manage to get your hard earned position behind someone, then you should be able to instakill them. But you shouldn't be able to walk right infront of them just because you have 100 to sneak.

People need to stop saying "filter yourself from beth perks" to make the game more challenging for them. No wonder everyone justifies players modding the game to make it better rather than expecting Beth to make it right the first time.

Most classes can become overpowered at high levels. Dual wielding, for example, i can kill enemies almost as fast as that without bothering to stealth at all.

I started over from my 33 dual wield orc, that had max smithing and minor enchants.
Even unenchanted gear, it was too much. I could take some damage but....I mean, legendary dragon scale armor, with double legendary daedric swords.
Thats ok, but then ontop of that 75 in one hand and dual wield that gives +100% damage on power attacks apart from the extra bonus from one handed, which is 80%.
As dual wielder you have 180% damage on your attacks, since you generally can afford to just spam power attacks.

Tried a destruction mage, it seems fine and balanced but not my cup of tea.

Now Im running a woodelf archer with sneak and bow. I have no secondary skills, and Im only using pickup gear I find.
Lvl 18 atm and managed to find a dwarven bow.
For close encounters Im using 2h, Im not even leveling one hand.

Since no Muffled sound although Im pretty silent, although I just recieved the *3 sneak attack damage on bows.
On expert I can take out a normal bandit with one shot. But if they are mediocre, I will take out half their health, and after the first shot Im spotted 75% of the time.

Im having a blast since all I have is one attack from stealth in general, and if there are several enemies Im need to kite, run, heal, and try and shoot, and in the end often picking up my 2h skyforged steel sword to try and smash them down, simply cause the bow attacks too slow for it to be useful in close combat, unless its just one.

Some encounters I have died 5 times in a row even on Adept, vs some bandit bosses (Im stacking full stamina, placed 1 level into hp so far, I will run with a low hp and high stamina build).

Anyway, Im having a blast but am forced to stay clear of alchemy, enchanting and mainly smithing.
Now, to be honest, I do have some smithing, but no perks. Im having it just so I can upgrade atleast a little. in general I can make bows like 10-15% better which is still ok.
But I wont take perks to make my own gear. If I want it, I need to find it, thats how I play now. I just started at lvl 17 to go from iron arrows to steel arrows.

Then again, ofc, my very first quest reward from whiterun after killing the initial dragon, was a hide helmet with +20% bow damage..........
Its replaced now anyway with a 10% increase all prices, from the thiefs guild armor set.
I want to play as clean from enchants as I possibly can, so I sold that hide helmet, it was a nice asset in early game but no longer required.

If I want to run silent, I need to invest perks. So I do have the perk in the light armor tree to be 50% more silent, but I wont use any muffled stuff. Thats ok with very low stealth.

Anyway, Im totally loving it now since I need to emply tactics in every fight and very often I need to run the heck out of there.
Most dungeon bosses, bandit leaders 1 shot me on expert, Im moving up to master soon but thats going to be a horse pain, but thats the fun part.

So, if you want challening game, you can make it so. The game gives you the option to steam roll through ot play it challenging.
Since I like smithing, I could not keep myself away from it, since I want some smithing atleast, bows dont have that good damage anyway.
But i want 60 in smithing so I can do my magic bows a little better. But since I dont have any perks, I can never make them beyond a certain point. And since i wont go further then 60, I can make my bows around 25%-30% better, which is rather much but not over the top, as if you take the proper perk you can make them 100% better, and with enchanting on top........
No thanks.
I ran around with an imperial bow until I was lvl 16. And I was just lucky to find a dwemer bow this early on.
Although tbh it had as much damage as the fera bow I had, it have lower weight though and look better.
Will stick with this for a long time since I know from my Orc, that glass bows wont start to show until around lvl 30.

Also, for my ranger (and I have hunters perk to get my arrows back) Im sticking to Iron and Steel arrows. Its good enough for me.

Exactly right, this mindset creates an arms race, I've seen it before and it utterly buggers the game for those not min/maxing.

LMAO, ya, that's exactly right. I've toyed around with all of the different skill trees in this game since I got it and I've found that if you play into whatever your major skills are, you're going to faceroll just about anything you come up against if you know what you are doing. Is that overpowered? Or just you utilizing what you have effectively?

I think the problem is that you can beat the game by combining a few aspects in the game and be OP. Thats being smart, but it also takes out the challenge too fast. Maybe when your level 70 its ok to be OP. You have earned it by then.

The problem regarding the thief-playstyle is Illusion. If you were not able to be invisible it would still be a challenge to sneak up to npc:s and stealth-kill them. I think Bethesda should remove invisibillity/chamelion for TESVI. You really dont need it in the game. It makes things too easy. It shouldnt be possible to break the game so there is no challenge left. I know you can limit yourself in your choices. But one point of beating the game is to try to figure out the best combination of skills/perks that make your character as strong as possible. So limiting yourself goes against that motivation - to actually be the best you can in the game. You shouldnt have to limit yourself.

Saying that, its also hard to define the line between limiting yourself unnaturally and exploiting the game unnaturally. I think its a difference between combining skills like illusion and sneak so that you are OP (which should be a natural way to play if its in the game), and exploiting the level-system to be OP (like making 1000 000 iron-daggers to get daedric-armor in an instant).

I play a sneak character, and I dont want to choose illusion since I know that it would break the game.

Completely and utterly false.

There are other classes/playstyles that benefits from illusion without using sneak skill. Removing something from the game because you can't control yourself is idiotic. Sorry.
Don't use perks or other means if it makes it to easy for you.

It's just like people whining about quests making their character evil or good. Don't do them!!!

the one thing that kinda starts bothering me with my thief is that all fights are the same, well there are no fights, i just sneak kill everything (except maybe some bosses) the problem i am start having with this is i kinda dont get the feeling of accomplishment anymore after having hardly survived a battle, cause i am really never in any battle...thats why im thinking trying also a warrior more further down the path...simply too feel that you are actually battling someone and not just taking them out one by one

I dont see a reason to keep invisibillity in the game for any class. Illusion may be there, but invisibillity not. You shouldnt have to constrain yourself in building a character. But now you have to.

Well, that's how a thief SHOULD do it. Thief are not ment to be a frontal attack class. If that's what you wanted you should have started out with a warrior play style.
But using dual wielding one handers as a thief works quite well though without smithing you will have to put alot of perks into light armour or meet death quite often.

If people want to play a hard game, ~~Dark Souls
fun, and fking hard,& an RPG - problem solved

Constraining yourself is a every day reality in real life. Why should it be any different in building a character?
You either want to use something or you don't. So DON'T!

well on lvl 24 or something i can still easily fight 1vs1 altough i dont have a single perk in light armor...but still, as you said its not how the class is supposed to play and i DO enjoy the sneaking or did...it just kinda started boring me a big cause of the lack of achievement...maybe i should switch to a warrior for some time...

I got a level 32 thief and it was a bit easier in the 20's. Last night i actually got one shot killed by a trap in a dungeon. 1st time i had this happen. So it seems it gets quite harder in the 30's though time will tell since I've just got over 30. Then again, i don't exploit or use every single thing in the game. I dont use smithing or enchanting. Alchemy is the only thing i use and i only got 3 perks in it.

Beacuse the point of a game is to find the best possible solution to a problem and feel that you have won. It should be the developers responsibillity to make sure that the world we play in is balanced, not the players. If I can become powerful and strong (which is one of the purposes with a RPG) by choosing the best possible way, I should be able to do so without breaking the game.

I think your wrong. The point with the game is to have fun and enjoy a good story by building a character fitting YOUR style of game-play. How you do that is up to you not the developer. The developer just give you the game and tools to do it. Skyrim was made for everyone, not just you.

You are allowed to have your opinion (though I would prefer if you had it without calling something idiotic just becase you disagree).
I disagree with you. Its hard as a developer to build a grand world that is built with the spirit "Do what you want, be who you want" without making it possible for someone to outsmart the game. But it is possible to minimize the aspects that make the choices gamebreaking. You should strive for this as a developer.

Whats the point in trying to make the best character possible if you have to deliberateley avoid the best strategies? Whats the point of being a great blacksmith if you have to leave your daedric-sword behind and choose a iron-swrod to not break the game?

Btw, there is another thread discussing this topic right now if you hadn't noticed. There are more than me adressing this you know....
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1288414-bethesda-why-must-we-rebalance-your-game-for-you/

As several in that thread says. We enjoy the game in different ways. Having something removed because YOU don't enjoy it is not fair to those who do enjoy it. That's why i said "Skyrim is made for everyone" and "Don't use it". There is a difference in having something balanced and removed. Removing invicibility is NOT a good solution.

If Skyrim is for everyone, then why should your opinion be the right? A lot of people think like I do. Of course you have to remove aspects in a series of games, and add aspects if you want to improve something. Thats what Bethesda did, and always has. They have removed mysticism, removed classes from Oblivion etc. Its a natural process in developing games. I think invisibillity is unneccesary. Thats my opinion. Alternativeley you could nerf it, say to not be able to use it more than once a day. Also not being able to enchant your gear with it.

I never said that my opinion was the right one. I said removing is not a good solution. Balancing is better than removal. That's what i would call a compromise. That's my opinion.
We agree to disagree.

+1000
That's exactly it!

There's no problem with doing really strong attacks from a sneak. But it's just stupid, if sneaking is as easy as stealing candy from a child.
I have sneak on 37 now + the boots from the Dark Brotherhood. No magic and other stuff used.
Still it's already MUCH too easy to sneak up on enemies as long as it's not day bright. This should really be adjusted to a bit more realism.

1. Even strong equipment should not do things like make you 100% silent (especially because it makes a lot of perks and other concepts useless).
2. Even if it's rather dark, higher level enemies should be able to see you, if you're just a few meters in FRONT of them.

Also invisibility (be it spell or potion) should have something like a cooldown.