Things Bethesda should learn : V - Skyrim

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:22 pm

Neverwinter Nights. How could you possibly forget those horrible excuses for games?

I tried to sit and play the second one (done by Obsidian), and I got past the first big fight in town before I just quit playing it. Bad controls, bad camera, sub-par graphics. I'm sorry, I won't play a game that is both technically and mechanically awful just to play the story. :shrug:

» Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:18 am

hardcoe mode. We could call it survival mode or whatever term you want to use, but it needs to be there. As an option. Plain and simple. This alone adds so much immersion to the game.

I can't argue against it as an option, but I definitely disagree that it needs to be there and it added almost no immersion to FONV for me - I only liked it for the heal over time stimpaks and ammo weight, the rest was just tedium.

Skyrim needs disguises. Just like in New Vegas, if an enemy got too close to you they should be able to tell. But we should be able to put on imperial armor or whatever it may be in Skyrim and walk around palaces without being questioned. This would add a whole new element to the game and greatly benefit sneak characters.

It would be cool, but they can only do so much with it I'm guessing - it was limited in New Vegas, you couldn't wear raider/bandit armors and not get attacked by bandits for example. Was kind of specific to particular quests. A simple method would simply be making any helm or clothing that covers your face make NPCs ignore all your reputation and faction allegiances and so on. That'd be more than enough to satisfy me and I imagine most soon to be Skyrim thieves.
Actually, a game to look @ for this sort of thing would be the Hitman games - wearing faction armors would work to some degree, but when they got close or saw you acting outside of what those kind of NPCs would normally do, they'd become suspicious.

Custom and hand-made weapons. I loved finding all the parts to make custom weapons in Fallout. It gave the custom weapons that feeling of uniqueness that other weapons did not have. It was also nice to be able to break down ammunition in New Vegas and create our own. There should be ways to break down arrows or swords and add your own blade, handle or arrow tip. This would again, add a huge, new element to the game.

As far as I know, this is already planned with smithing.

Warring factions. Although this will most likely not be in Skyrim, it would be nice to have factions that hated one another that you had to choose to be a part of. In New Vegas there came a time where you had to choose a side and there were consequences for doing so. We all know that this won't happen in the main quest but it seems entirely possible as side quests. Maybe a DLC could add some elements of this after the game is released.

There may not be all out warring factions but it sounds like there will be definite rivalries and allies. New Vegas was very faction based, while Skyrim has bigger problems, it's hard to expect factions to be too preoccupied with eachother when dragons are frolicking about.

» Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:23 am

Things you should learn- You don't know how a certain game company runs, and shouldn't be telling them what they should learn or not. Bethesda isn't stupid, that's why they have created games that have won multiple graphics awards, and have won game of the year awards. Also their new game that hasn't come out yet is already making people shout game of the year.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:31 pm

well i don't agree with 1 because hardcoe mode is more of a modern game thing. this is a fantasy rpg, one would ask " why cant i just conjure up a steak? ". but yes my favorite feature from new Vegas has to be disguises. would this work in Skyrim? not so sure because not everyone wears full helmets or hats.

I've played fantasy RPGs that were the equivalent of HC mode ~except that it was just regular mode (as it should be IMO

), and they did have the option to conjure up food. I think HC mode would be fine in a Fantasy setting ~though of course, I'd rather it was just regular mode for the game, and not some special optional.

Bethesda isn't stupid, that's why they have created games that have won multiple graphics awards...

I agree, they are not stupid ~but that's a backhanded compliment if I ever saw one. :laugh: (unintended I know)

** I should mention that so far, I prefer Bethesda's 3d assets and art design over Obsidian's... but I prefer Obsidian's everything else...

, and have won game of the year awards.

I put little faith or value in this, myself.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:57 pm

The only thing that I want Bethesda to learn is how much many of us hate any form of Scaled Content. Completely game ruining in both FO3 and Oblivion for me.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:07 pm

hardcoe Mode: Actually, I thought hardcoe took away from immersion, since it was just another number to keep track of.
Disguises: I agree on disguises.
Custom/ Unique Weapons: Hopefully this will come into play with blacksmithing.
Warring Factions: Skyrim is in the middle of a civil war, so I'd presume we'll have this.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:25 pm

hardcoe Mode: Actually, I thought hardcoe took away from immersion, since it was just another number to keep track of.

Why exactly? (I don't get it; What other way would you have them signify hunger ~gastric noises? Its a serious question. Its the PC getting hungry... They can't make the player get hungry.)

Invisible walls is a sign that the quest/world designer(s) is a lame ...

Invisible walls are a non-issue for me [personally]; they did explain the reason for them.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:42 pm

I do not know about you, but i actually LIKED Fallout 3 and New Vegas. There were many good developments made in the FO games, like MUCH better voice acting (which was horrible at times in Oblivion).

What i did not like about FO-NV games was the patches that Steam shoved down my throat and the invisible walls crap.

Invisible walls is a sign that the quest/world designer(s) is a lame ass and that kind of thing does not belong in an OPEN WORLD game. If i was Todd, i'd string up people by their testicles if they suggested that invisible walls was "a good way of controlling what the player should be able to do". That kind of primitive linear gameplay mechanics belongs in the 1990s.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:51 pm

2 factions are at war and we have smithing, though i would like to see an optional survival mode.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:35 pm

Free reason to crash at startup/load with every new chapter of DLC is not a selling point.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:47 pm

I would really love a hardcoe mode in Skyrim, though I do think it should be called 'survivalist mode'. Since there are more creatures, like rabbits, elk, salmon, etc., eating could take on a whole new meaning other than just restoring health or used in alchemy.

Also, you've got plenty of rivers and lakes it seems for drinking, or perhaps just chugging down an ale.

Also, it's been a long day and dragonborn is weary and fixing to collapse from exhaustion? That tavern you see yonder now serves the purpose of resting up your character for the next day.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:42 pm

I tried to sit and play the second one (done by Obsidian), and I got past the first big fight in town before I just quit playing it. Bad controls, bad camera, sub-par graphics. I'm sorry, I won't play a game that is both technically and mechanically awful just to play the story. :shrug:

Huh, we must have been playing different games. I thought NWN2 was great, though that awful genre shift with the castle management thing really annoyed me. In fact, the controls were fine, and the graphics weren't cutting edge but the environments still looked detailed and nice. Sounds like maybe it was a problem with you.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:38 pm

Wow, you basically took everything I either hated or did not use in new vegas, and said it should be in Skyrim.
I disagree.

» Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:19 am

My favourite thing about F:NV was the writing and quests, I felt they were both better handled than they were in F3. Don't know if thats something Bethesda could learn, Beth themselves is pretty good at it, but I think they should hire some of the writers from Obsidian.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:43 pm

Most of those ideas don't suit TES game series. Also weapon crafting is confirmed to be in skyrim, through smiting, and armor too. As is the warring factions, civil war was in the bloody teaser trailer. And hardcoe mode doesn't suit TES, there is no shortage of water or food or beds/shelter. If you want things to be hard turn the difficulty to max and be 1 shot by a trap.

» Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:10 am

Huh, we must have been playing different games. I thought NWN2 was great, though that awful genre shift with the castle management thing really annoyed me. In fact, the controls were fine, and the graphics weren't cutting edge but the environments still looked detailed and nice. Sounds like maybe it was a problem with you.

Wow. I'm glad my preference marks me as a problem. <_<

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:24 pm

For even mentioning Obsidian, you are going to get a lot of this on this thread "ZOMG I HATE FALLOUT NV CUZ IT ISNT OBLIVION WITH LAZERZ!!! RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE!!!!!!!!!!"

That being said, Bethesda should draw from Obsidian for Fallout 4, not for Skyrim.

Though I have a feeling that won't happen, because all Bethesda wants to do with Fallout is make an Elder Scrolls game with a Sci-Fi palette swap.

Not that I dislike Fallout 3, it just wasn't unique in any way. It was a good game, but an awful Fallout game. Fallout is not a franchise meant to satisfy everybody, plain and simple.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:40 pm

and again op

A hardcoe mode would mean taking out alot of key mechanics. for one you would need to drink water to stop from dying of thirst but when was the last time anyone had a drink of cold water that had no special effect in an elder scrolls game.second food. every single piece of anything consumable would have some sort of side effect they would have to take those side effects out to make food just bring your health up meaning alchemy would be that much less important.if a hardcoe mode would be in an elderscrolls game bethesda would probably have to take some things out to make it balanced. like take restoration for example why eat anything to bring up your health when you can have a spell that does it better you see what I mean.I don't think there is anyway to put in a hardcoe mode without taking things out.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:05 pm

Wow. I'm glad my preference marks me as a problem. <_<

Well considering you thought that minor control and camera problems made them game, "technically and mechanically awful," and thought graphics that had mixed to positive reviews we're so bad that they made the game unplayable, yeah I'd say it's a personal problem.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:49 pm

A hardcoe mode would mean taking out alot of key mechanics. for one you would need to drink water to stop from dying of thirst but when was the last time anyone had a drink of cold water that had no special effect in an elder scrolls game.second food. every single piece of anything consumable would have some sort of side effect they would have to take those side effects out to make food just bring your health up meaning alchemy would be that much less important.if a hardcoe mode would be in an elderscrolls game bethesda would probably have to take some things out to make it balanced. like take restoration for example why eat anything to bring up your health when you can have a spell that does it better you see what I mean.I don't think there is anyway to put in a hardcoe mode without taking things out.

nonsense. there was a plethora of drinking and eating mods for morrowind and oblivon that worked just fine. the one i used added a hunger effect to foods via script so it didnt interfere with alchemy at all. health and hunger are also seperate settings so just eating food didnt necessarily increase your heathl......at least that how my game was set up. water was never used for anything anyways outside of swimming or drowning. there is no reason why it couldnt be incorporated easily into the game.

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:57 pm

It seems that any time a post is made about features in Fallout: New Vegas or Fallout 3 (even though that was made by Bethesda) it instantly garners flame throwers and negative comments. I personally love both game and without question, enjoy The Elder Scrolls more. However, there are numerous things features that were in Fallout: New Vegas that should be incorporated into Skyrim, whether we like to admit it or not.

The first one is what I think is the most obvious and something that seems to have a new thread on these forums every other day. hardcoe mode. We could call it survival mode or whatever term you want to use, but it needs to be there. As an option. Plain and simple. This alone adds so much immersion to the game. I think the hardcoe mode for Skyrim should go as far as eliminating the use of fast travel as well. Either way, there needs to be an option to turn on mandatory eating, drinking and sleeping in Skyrim.

The second thing is something that didn't get much attention but was a wonderful addition. Skyrim needs disguises. Just like in New Vegas, if an enemy got too close to you they should be able to tell. But we should be able to put on imperial armor or whatever it may be in Skyrim and walk around palaces without being questioned. This would add a whole new element to the game and greatly benefit sneak characters.

Custom and hand-made weapons. I loved finding all the parts to make custom weapons in Fallout. It gave the custom weapons that feeling of uniqueness that other weapons did not have. It was also nice to be able to break down ammunition in New Vegas and create our own. There should be ways to break down arrows or swords and add your own blade, handle or arrow tip. This would again, add a huge, new element to the game.

Warring factions. Although this will most likely not be in Skyrim, it would be nice to have factions that hated one another that you had to choose to be a part of. In New Vegas there came a time where you had to choose a side and there were consequences for doing so. We all know that this won't happen in the main quest but it seems entirely possible as side quests. Maybe a DLC could add some elements of this after the game is released.

There are probably more that I'm not thinking about but I feel like these would benefit the game tremendously. Any other Fallout players that have ideas feel free to include them, I'd like to hear what you guys think.

Wow.

1. hardcoe mode really depends on the game. It's something they planned but Fallout 3, actually, but it didnt make the cut. Bethesda was the one who forced it in New Vegas, not Obsidian.
2. Again, disguises were thought about for Fallout 3, but they didnt make it. Chances are that, again, BGS made Obsidian put them in NV.
3. There were more custom weapons in Fallout 3 than there were in NV. What are you talking about?
4. That matters more on the story. Technically Fo3 had warring factions, there were just like, 3 instead of 7.

Honestly, I think Obsidian messed up a HUGE amount more than the few things that they fixed in NV. You can tell because we are like, 9 months in, and FAR fewer people still play NV than how many played Fo3 9 months in. I think that speaks VOLUMES more than the 4 poorly chosen things that you picked. Fallout 3 was a FAR better game, and I never want Obsidian making another Fallout game, or an Elder Scrolls game.

New Vegas was better in Fallout in terms of the improved engine. (i.e. reloading, ammo types, ironsights) But that was all mostly done by BGS. The part that Obsidian really had control of was FAR worse. (i.e. the map, level design, story, quests, leveling)

/rant

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:13 pm

Wow.

1. hardcoe mode really depends on the game. It's something they planned but Fallout 3, actually, but it didnt make the cut. Bethesda was the one who forced it in New Vegas, not Obsidian.
2. Again, disguises were thought about for Fallout 3, but they didnt make it. Chances are that, again, BGS made Obsidian put them in NV.
3. There were more custom weapons in Fallout 3 than there were in NV. What are you talking about?
4. That matters more on the story. Technically Fo3 had warring factions, there were just like, 3 instead of 7.

Honestly, I think Obsidian messed up a HUGE amount more than the few things that they fixed in NV. You can tell because we are like, 9 months in, and FAR fewer people still play NV than how many played Fo3 9 months in. I think that speaks VOLUMES more than the 4 poorly chosen things that you picked. Fallout 3 was a FAR better game, and I never want Obsidian making another Fallout game, or an Elder Scrolls game.

New Vegas was better in Fallout in terms of the improved engine. (i.e. reloading, ammo types, ironsights) But that was all mostly done by BGS. The part that Obsidian really had control of was FAR worse. (i.e. the map, level design, story, quests, leveling)

/rant

Fallout 3s story forced you to side with the BoS, the only real choices consisting of "Who do youz wantz ta esplode?", had two deminsional husks as NPCs, forgot that it had been 200 years sense the war, was more black and white than a Final Fantasy game.......I could go on for hours.

Different strokes for different folks.

And actually, from results of recent polls in the Fallout universe forum, most people prefer NV to 3.

/logic

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:01 pm

Fallout 3s story forced you to side with the BoS, the only real choices consisting of "Who do youz wantz ta esplode?", had two deminsional husks as NPCs, forgot that it had been 200 years sense the war, was more black and white than a Final Fantasy game.......I could go on for hours.

Appose too new vegas where you did the exact same quests and just sided with different people for the last battle which changed virtually nothing except the character models you fought? Yeah, that was so much better. :facepalm:

You responded to his 12 points with one weak one.

Different strokes for different folks.

And actually, from results of recent polls in the Fallout universe forum, most people prefer NV to 3.

/logic

Most people are also stupid and vote for whatever is more new. If fallout 3 came out after NV and was the same game, I'm sure many would prefer it.

/real logic

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:04 pm

Parroting the others here...

What Beth should learn from Obsidian:

1. Writing (all writing, story, quests and their solutions, the world, characters, etc).
2. Quest design

» Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:07 pm

Writing and quest design. Fallout 3 failed abysmally in the former and did only halfway-decent in the latter, and even then only outside of the main quest.

I agree with this. I was surprised it wasn't mentioned in the OP. By far the best thing about NV was the character depth and interaction, and the superior writing/story. NV's main quest blows Fo3's out of the water. Hell, some of the sidequests as well.
I've said it before, but an open world like only Bethesda can make it, (because I'll be honest, NV game world left a bit to be desired in the exploration department) with the depth of story that NV had would be awesome, I'm hoping Skyrim will at least meet that halfway.