Hello everyone, this a big one and yes my first post, but i felt i had some issues i didn't like about the game and thought i would put them all together rather than have a few several little posts. Enjoy.

Let’s just say how it is. These are my opinions, some may agree, some may disagree, but these are my opinions and for what they are worth, right or wrong, I feel that Zenimax have let down the elderscroll fan base.

This is not skyrim, this is not morrowind, oblivion, and this is elderscolls online. This is the rhetoric I hear from people trying to defend this game, but we have to appreciate that this game is base in those worlds and if it has any chance of credibility as being an elderscrolls game it really needs to look at some of the important factors that makes Morrowind and skyrim the games that we have come to love.

I have played in 3 of the Betas now and at first I was not impressed. But the problem was that I couldn’t see why I was not impressed. Slowly the game started to grow, and I started to like it, I couldn’t explain it but it was starting to become interesting. And then I decided to play skyrim to see what it was I was missing. What was it about the other single player games that we have come to love? And why this so called elderscrolls online is not even a shadow on the bethesdas award winning games.

The character skill sets are a brilliant concept, it allows for a basic set skills that you get as a class Launchpad, but essentially everyone is the same. Each race has a unique ability, or resistance, each race gets unique bonuses, but essentially we are all the same. We have the same skills. I could be a dragon knight and decide to be a caster, I could be a caster and decide to use heavy armour and sword and board, the sword and board skill set is pretty much the same across the board. But with each of the launch pads we have a pre-determined character class. That essentially, we will not move away from. So realistically this is not going to stop alternate characters. And I was hoping for a game where I didn’t have to have alternate characters. If I want to be a decent enough caster, I have to take the caster class Launchpad, and if I want to change to sword and board, then I don’t stand a hope in hells chance of being anywhere as good as player who has taken a tank class. So this will mean I will have to have alternate characters if I want to be any good in a chosen class type.

So was it this that was bothering me? Maybe. In the elderscrolls single player games, we do not have any pre-determined skill set, we can choose what we want to be as we progress.

But still something was bugging me and it was when I was playing Skyrim again I realised what it was and the list is pretty ugly.

In ESO, there is no weight to character animation combat. Some will disagree, but I challenge you to play skyrim and watch what happens when you kill a monster or NPC, when they die, they fly away from you, in the direction of your weapon swing, with an excellent rag doll effect, in elderscrolls they seem to have some pathetic death animation like someone trying to have the last word.

Where was the huge inertia from my god almighty swing, or the staggering effects of being impaled by an arrow launched from a super strong bow? The bow is another bone of contention and I will pick this topic up again later.

Simply put the combat is all very busy and looks impressive but the climix to a huge fight ends with an NPC/Monster looking vacant and slumping to the ground? Bit of an anti-climix really.

And who among you sometimes enjoyed the morbid affair of picking up a dead Monster you just killed, and dumping it in the river to hide the evidence? Ok skyrim is a single player game, no one’s actually going to care or take notice, but that’s the issue, the single player game felt more like I needed to hide my fresh assassination kill from other NPC’s, random guards wonder over and complain “I don’t know who’s done this but if I find out, some one’s going to pay.” You all must recall the speech animation of the guards, please tell me I was not imagining that.

And is ESO, well I have not seen any corpses floating down stream in the rivers? Shame zenimax missed out on something quite special there.

So picking up corpses and disposing of your road rage. Not in ESO.

Which brings me to another element of the game that they missed out on.

Have you ever, either on purpose or by accident killed a chicken in riverwood or whiterun? I bet some of you have. Now during the heat of battle, some NPC’s in the single player games were accidentally killed and the game was intuitive enough to realise that it could well have been the huge dragon breathing fire down on the town folks, and not really your arrow you just loosed into the crowds. But if you went on a killing spree of livestock, not only would the guards, but the towns folks come for you, if you refused to pay the fine. OMG I getting killed by a guard for murdering a chicken. My own fault really.

In ESO, a friend of mine decided to murder the livestock belonging to the towns folk of davons watch in full view of the guards like it’s the most natural thing for them to witness?? No fine, no guards chasing him…. Cool my friend thought and finished off murdering everything that was wondering around that he could attack, and the guards did…. You got it, NOTHING. Boring! Huge fail Zenimax.

Which brings me to the next point. NPC’s guards and townfolk are not even killable? So you can’t kill anyone other than NPC/monsters? An NPC really annoys you, not unlike the priest in whiterun preaching about Talos? Remember him?, who here killed him when you became a werewolf for the first time? I am telling you he was the only one that was butchered in whiterun, after becoming a werewolf, and I left everyone else alone, because I liked everyone else.

Now Zenimax will come up with some really obscure reason why not, but frankly other MMO’s have managed making everything in the world targetable and killable for years, why not you?

There are ways to get around this issue, and any player who has played some of the older MMO’s will know what I am on about, when I say positive and negative faction related hits.

Sneaking… Sneaking sneaky sneaky, picking pockets, picking chests open, looting cupboards.

You know what happens in the single player games. You get caught, fined and if you refuse, either the guards let you go because it’s not worth there time, or Fight, fight, fight.

In ESO, nothing??? Baffled beyond belief. I am stealing your lockpicks from your chest over here, look at me stealing from your foot locker… ? No fine, no guards, no warnings, no complaints. FAIL!

Which leads back to combat and sneaking, and more importantly I am linking bow use in this.

You sneak, bring out your bow, draw back the arrow, take aim…. Loose.

Apart from the incredibly feeble range in which arrow flies, and in fact disappears after a certain range, you stand up because you fired an arrow? Why am I not in sneak mode still, why do I stand up because I fired an arrow? It needs the NPC to come find me, not for me to stand up waving my arms around shouting I am over here, if you failed to notice my arrow being fired at you. OMG ZeniFail

Oh yes and no ragdoll affects from being hit by arrows. Vacant look of dying victim, is that an aaaaarhg.

Sneak should be as in the single player game, make it worth something, your using an ability, make other players have to work to find you, they need to be more observant about their surroundings, you shouldn’t be penalised for using sneak and attacking from sneak with a range attack like that. If player manages to duck behind cover just after firing, and the NPC or player didn’t see where they were, tough, make them run around looking that’s what sneak is for, not some failed attempt to allow someone just to get the drop shot.

And Bow use. First thing I wanted to do when I got into the beta was get a Bow asap and start being a sniper rogue, it seemed it was never to be, bow seems to be the most useless weapon in the game, has no real weight behind each attack (staggering) and you can’t remained sneaking when using it. Why can’t I crouch and remained ducked making me a smaller target? Why do I have to stand up?

If you have the little eye crosshair opening and closing, why? Why? Why? If it’s not going to make a damn bit of difference to the NPC or players? Why is it in the game? This just seems like a failed attempt to put something in the game from the single player, that you haven’t managed to get to work.

Which brings me to soft targets. Some of you may know what I am on about here, some may not. So for the benefit of those who don’t, here it is.

Soft targets is where you cast a spell or loose any arrow or swing a sword, but your cross hair is not over your target, but is in the general area of your target, the game seems to allow for a chance to hit, this is soft targeting.

For the most part, firing into a crowd of people, you’re going to hit something, and soft targeting works. But when it seems to be that you duck behind a cover way before the ranged affect has chance to reach you, the spells and arrows seem to defy the laws of nature, curving their way around objects. I have never seen an arrow turn a corner. Or a directed spell traveling in a straight line, suddenly do 90 degree turns. Until now!?

If your casting spells or shooting arrows, you’re already at range from you’re target. Which means you have a clear advantage in combat, the range user is not being hit or attacked. So why give them an advantage of soft targeting, where as long as they’re firing in the general direction you will hit?

The skill of a range user is to anticipate the actions of the enemy and land that all-important ranged attack at the right time. And it’s the skill of the CQ combatant to close the range to beat to death with a melee weapon. The skill sets allow for a caster to be able to wear more protective armour if need be, and even swap out his staff for a sword and board… now that would humiliating, a caster fails to finish off his target with spells and the enemy closes in, the caster swaps to sword and board proves to him/herself that it wasn’t a waste skill points, taking those skills after all when they smash the CQ combatants head in?

If a spell is targeted at the ground next to me while I am hid behind a wall or obstacle, and the small blast AOE is pecking away at my health then so be it, well played caster. If I manage to double tap and duck behind a wall, I don’t want to see a spell following me around corners. IMO this is another fail.

So much white text, on a black background

OP, you may want to watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd7kachAfSc

It talks about recent changes that were not in any of the previous betas (but are in the PTS).

One change as mentioned in the video is NPC collision detection, adding a much more solid feel to combat, take a look.

So...I assume that you won't be playing then when the game launches?

Much of the stuff you ask for is not possible an MMO, at least not without sacrifice in other areas.

Also, I think that if that's what you think is an Elder Scrolls game then we definitely have a huge gap in our expectations. This isn't a single player game, nor is is Skyrim Online. I know you claim to have heard that but I don't think you appreciate what that means. You cannot go into this game expecting the same mechanics and freedom other games in the series had. MMOs don't work that way. What this is is a brand new MMO set in the world of the best selling Elder Scrolls game. That's it.

Now to many, including me, this does mean certain things. For me it means setting. Are the races the ones from the original games? Are the gods and monsters from the original games? If the city is old enough is it represented? What about the names of legendary weapons? Lost ruins? Flora and Fauna? IMO if they have those things...if the world is recognizable to me as the one the other games are set in (allowing for some changes) then they've succeeded.

Thanks for the video link. It was most interesting.

Yes sorry for huge text, but as i said, i wanted to get all my points in one post rather than have a lot of little ones. if member are prepred to read it, i feel i have some valid points to make.

I am already ware of the collision, i am not on about collision. i am on about the rag doll affect, or rather lack of. the combat has no clear climix. i have played a templar and used uppercut to finish off monsters, but they dont fly away at speed or even get knocked back, they just simply fall to the ground like they had actually given up rather than me finishing them off.

I can only hope this thread said something about killing chickens.

That's the thing I have been svcked in because of the game world. there really needs to be some changes, its lacking something. otherwise its just going to be another failed MMO.

I have pre-ordered, doh!

I respect your opinions and thank you for taking the time to write that out. It's a good read. I'll go over some of my views in reflection to your points.

While I see the urge people have to compare this game with Skyrim, Oblivion or Morrowind, know that this installment is it's own monster. It's no secret that people dislike change; they're so used to a certain thing and as soon as something is changed it's immediately a catastrophe; with that in mind, let me say that most people compare these games with an unfair biased, as though they have an agenda. Instead of comparing the bad with the good, try comparing the good with the bad. I'll play devils advocate for a moment:

Your point on death animations is valid and I agree, but this compromise was made for a reason. The reason? We simply couldn't render hundreds of dead people physics at once in an MMO. What does this mean for Elder Scrolls Online? Well, while one on one combat might not feel as substantial as it does in the previous titles; it more than makes up for this fact when huge battles are considered. Did you ever lay siege to Whiterun in Skyrim? Face it, that eight man army was a complete immersion breaking joke. How about that epic speech Sean Bean gave to his troops at the end of Oblivion? ..all 10 of them.. my point is that while one on one combat was great in the previous titles, the huge battles weren't huge at all; they were pathetic and didn't properly depict a civil war or land under Daedra attack.

I could go over each of your points and tell you why they made sacrifices in certain departments; and for the most part it's simply because this game is an MMO. When all is said and done this means that you lose some of that single player experience, but are compensated with a group experience. The big question is "was it worth it?" and that will always come down to personal opinion. Some people want something fresh, other people liked things the way they were. Some people want to play solo, other people want to play with others, but to say that they have let down the Elder Scrolls fanbase simply isn't true.. as I'm one of those fans, and I don't feel let down at all.

If you want a Skyrim experience, play Skyrim. If you want a Morrowind experience, play Morrowind. If you want an Elder Scrolls Online experience.. you guessed it.

Ah, so if they don't cater to you specifically, it's a fail? Got it.

Now, realise that this is NOT a single player game, many things needs to be compromised, from player feedback, they've done a pretty decent job thus far with the compromises.

Fact is, it's a brand new game, there are changes you will see from other games, do NOT expect it to be a replica of a previous title, it's amazing how many people do this (as is evident from the amount of people who call Skyrim a fail Elder Scrolls game, and people on the CDPR forums are calling TW3 a failed game) Amazing!

To fougerec, if what you say is so. that its all about the feel and the environment etc... then they should never have had the pre-determined class sets. they should have had us all starting as no skill nobodies.

And some of the things i have mentioned, have been done before in other MMOs, very successfully, its just that those games are now dated.

i have heard the rhetoric about its not skyrim its not oblivion. Elderscrolls online is set in those world.....

And each Elder Scrolls game has been different, and single player.

Adaptation my friend, maybe they'll add these things and improve on them as the game progresses, who knows, but don't expect all your specifications to be in immediately, you're set for disappoint if you do.

Having heard something multiple times somehow makes it less credible? Quite the opposite I'd say.

New game is new. Some things it does better, some things it does worse; just like all the previous games.

What isn't allowed in a mmo? Physics? No that can't be it. Is it killable npcs with fluid factions? No, can't be that again, already done. Good animations aren't allowable? Is that it? Crime and faction systems? Can you tell me what isn't doable in an MMO please cause I don't understand.


Stop white knighting the game with blanketed untruths.

Some kind of justice system will be introduced to the game with a later update (along with the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild).

As the post title said i think its things that they should look at. and not just look and stand there and say ok we looked.

We want immersion? yes i am at least getting that from the members here?

Well being ******* unbelievably evil is immersion, being a blood thirsty killer. and not just in PvP. is immersion. if i wanted to murder and entire town in PvE, wait a sec player verse environment.... and the town folks not environment, are the guards not the same? Immersion.

PvP, is not for everyone. although i do like a bit of PvP from time to time. PvP uis simply, player verse another player with no gains or reward, apart from some little poxy token you get to spend at a vendor, its not a game changer its not a world changer, its doesn't affect your character in the world, it doesn't really affect the world... or does it. will the warfare zone in cyrodil affect the outcome and the environment in the starting city, will there be consiquences in the PvE for failing to win? if they have managed to add something special with PvP affecting the world environment, then woah! i stand corrected.

If we all want immersion, you have to ask what immersion are we getting.

I have always had the opinion about MMO's when trying to find a balance between making a purely PvP or PvE game. its can't be done, because there is always a custom base left at the wayside. i've still to see a game that can manage to truly cater for both. either one or the other is neglected at the end stage.

Morrowind was set in Vvanderfell which is part of Tamriel but you didn't see everyone in Skyrim with fortified acrobatics to stupid amounts or running around with movement speed so fast your PC would crash as it tried to load everything.

Each game has been different, Skyrim (which everyone seems to go on and on about) actually feels very linear in terms of character progression and choice compared to Morrowind or even Oblivion. TESO is a great game based in the world we know and love

A lot of the things you've mentioned epitomizes the differences between single play and MMO games.

Once I start playing I'm engaged in the combat and am not actually watching the animations, so I really don't care. But that's just me.

When you kill NPCs in Skyrim etc. they stay dead. You want to be able to kill them here? Well that's great until 2 weeks after release all the shopkeepers in the world are dead and we have completely barren towns. What fun! Presumably you would implement some sort of re-spawn of the NPCs, but how is that less immersion breaking than making them un-killable in the first place?

There are differences in gameplay and mechanics between all the TES games from Arena to Skyrim, this is another TES game that has different mechanics, that's all. Just because it isn't Skyrim online doesn't mean it's not TES.

Sorry that's where your wrong. There have been games over the years that have managed to accomplish alot of what i have said, but they are now dated games.

It really feels to me that all we are getting is a PvP game, with PvE game added on, which i will admit has been fleshed out quite alot. but the game world isnt PvE, its not a true PvE game, everything in a PvE game should be targetable and killable, from guild leaders to chickens (thats for you cyba didnt want you feeling left out).

I hear you its not skyrim its not oblivion, i hear you i really do. this is elderscrolls on line, its the immersion of what we know from those worlds put into the game, i guess you mean from nirnroot to Dunmer slavery? but wait a sec. its not those games so why put all that old single player content into this MMO if there not the same or not to be compared. Why not start afresh?

Unfortunately they will be compared because far too much of those worlds are in this game. too much of the lore is in the game, too much of the objects we have come to know and trust are in. and to not compare is just as valid as to compare.

But i am not actually comparing. my initial points were such that certain game mechanic are in the game and seem to be useless or a vague attempt to try and cross something over from the single player and fail at it.

Why is the open/closed eye cross hair in the game if its not going to be useful in PvE, try it you'll find it surprisingly [censored] as a skill.

Pick pocketing in other MMO's ( i am comparing other MMO's because i am not allowed to compare the single player games of its name sake). Pick pocketing in other MMO's you get caught the person you tried pick pocketing turns on you and will very well kill you.

Seen as i am not supposed to compare the game to its single players name sake. other MMO's very successfully produce fantastic ragdoll on dead corpses, but those games are dated.

Spells and arrows that turn corners... This one baffled be beyond belief. truly. i know which class i will play btw. take advantage of every opportunity. other games have managed to put in collision for spells and arrows etc... ?

So if i am not allowed to compare the single player game of its name sake, other MMO can do everything i have said, in one way or another, successfully, so why does it feel like being short changed. I was expecting something new. I have to give it to them i haven't seen half of the issues i have mentioned in a MMO for a long long time. its almost retro.

It feels like they have taken the history and strength and lore of brilliantly well produced single player games the likes of morrowind and oblivion and skyrim and built a MMO off the backs of those success and we are not allowed to compare because they are single and this is a MMO. ok whatever.

I will retort, but to finish here.

Its a very rich and dynamic world, as a MMO off its own back without the elderscrolls world attached to it, it has a alot to be desired. the crafting system is simple and yet complicated enough to be interesting. The NPC dialogue is excellent. The combat albeit very anticlimactic is ok. the skills for the characters is brilliant and unique and i think that's all its got going for it.

I hear from time to time, new games need to change and move on, i agree, but you can't really redefine a wheel.

This. Sometimes we need artificial barriers to stop players from doing things they wouldn't do in real life.

While true that you're able to walk into your local town and murder everyone, you don't.

well when you complete a quest the open world phases it to show you did it. could this not be done with normal npc, so only the player that killed the npc can see it?

This was a point i discussed with friends who have played the beta. Either have a respawn timer on the NPC. i know its old hack but it works, its frustrating enough that other players will complain "please stop killing him i need to hand in a quest", thats PvE, our killing an NPC affects other players as well as the environment.

Or phase the NPC out, its been done with the warrior guild guildleader. she is still in davons watch even though my quest says shes in another area, how do i know? well i dont think half a dozen people stood in a semi circle around where she normally stands are doing that for there own health. i mean they maybe, they may like the wallpaper, hey what ever floats your boat. but i have sneaky suspicion that she is phased out for me. So why not phase out NPC that we kill? or respawn them

I have found 3 NPC atm that i hate i want to plant my warhammer in there heads, so why cant i? its supposed to be PvE???

You have some very Valid points and everything you said is very true, and some of that should be fixed. But unfortunatly Its not going to be exactly how everyone wants it because of it being an MMO everyone will have to have some sort of compromise even though they can work to make all of that better its just not going to work as perfectly as it did in any of those games considering the fact that everyone that played skyrim knows that was one of the buggiest games you can encounter even though the bugs were funny and part of the magic of the game this game can develope enough to where things are satisfying to everyone this game has a lot of room for inprovment and its just starting out and its fan base is already astonishing because even from the start of elder scrolls people wanted this. Having Tamerial together in one place to experience skyrim, morrowind, cryidil, etc, all in the same place is a dream come true by itself. So even though what you said is true in giving you everything you want to a T takes away from the other new and exciting things in the game, (im not saying things shouldnt or cant be fixed to better satisfy what people want).