I really doubt they are going to combine the armor skills into one. How would it make sense that wearing light armor would improve your ability to wear heavy armor or vice versa? I think that your choice of armor should really be more significant, otherwise you could just switch your armor at will and suffer no penalties.

Holy, what the [censored]?!?

When did Alchemy become a Rogue/Theif like skill? I thought it was all about the mages with the apparently natural Magicka abilities that said plants contain at their most basic form!

Does it really mater where it goes? It still does the exact same thing. It doesn't matter where they go, the skills can stand on their own. Besides, mages had little use for the many poisons that alchemy can make. Its just one of those skills that can be used along with different play-styles. Its a suport type, and health potions, poisions, magicka potions can pretty much be used by any playstyle.

I am so glad they gave all that magic skills info so early on as I was already able to think out my mage characters likely first 10-15 levels.

I have no clue what im gona do with my wariorr or tomb raider chars tho as there simply are too many holes in the combat and stealth skill sets for me to begin thinking about a 10-15 level plan.

Id figure my warrior would go one handed and block... but I dont even know if block is a skill or just part of one handed.

As for my tomb raider.... babble! I am clueless so far no way to realy envision it this time.

I'm all for combining skills when and where it makes sense, but combining sneak and security makes absolutely no sense to me. Sneak is moving around quietly and security is knowledge of and experience with locks. Personally, I hated the lock-picking mini-game in Oblivion and tried to get the skeleton key as soon as possible (it's a Daedric quest, if I remember correctly), but I still think it makes sense to have security in addition to sneak--the two just don't have enough in common with each other to be combined (like, for example, acrobatics and athletics).

(I guess this is an example of never using a skill yet still thinking it is important, since the skeleton key pretty much nullifies the security skill.)

Ok, I'm going to draw together a bunch of themes which have been brought up since this thread got bumped. This is going to be a fairly long post, so apologies. A consistent theme running throughout will be that plausible skill sets are holistic. In general, you can't just take a suggested skill set you think is quite likely, but then just make one little swap. This is because of the way perks are being used to also govern your character's abilities.

I want to start out with a "minimal" skill set, and then look at ways of filling it out to get to 18. I think everyone can agree that this, at least, is the starting point:

Combat:
One-Handed
Two-Handed
Armour
Smithing
?
?

Magic:
Alteration
Conjuration
Destruction
Enchanting
Illusion
Restoration

Stealth:
Alchemy
Archery
Speechcraft
Sneak
Acrobatics/Athletics
?

(Don't worry so much about the Combat/Magic/Stealth categories. Move the skills between them as you see fit.)

Ok, so what are the options for filling out Combat and Stealth? The options, as I see it, are the following:
Shield/Block
Hand-to-Hand
Light/Heavy Amour (ie. split Armour into two skills)
Security
Mercantile

Let's go through these. I want to consider how the relevant in-game content might be managed without a separate skill, to see whether this sheds any light on whether there will be a separate skill.

Shields/Blocking. Some people have suggested that this could be managed by One-Handed, Two-handed, and the armour skill(s). One worry about going this way is that it could create a lot of redundancy in the perks. Let me explain. If there isn't a separate shield/block skill, then one way it could work is like this. Under One-Handed and Two-Handed, there are perk trees for blocking with a weapon of the type governed by that skill. So, for instance, under One-Handed there is a perk tree for blocking with a one-handed weapon, and under Two-Handed there is a perk tree for blocking with a two-handed weapon. Then, presumably under the armour skill(s) there is a perk tree for blocking with a shield. And what about if there is both a Light Armour and a Heavy Armour skill? Would there be a perk tree for blocking with a shield under Light Amour, and a perk tree for blocking with a shield under Heavy Armour? Now, I don't want to say that this is a bad system or anything like that - I can imagine some people liking this way of going, because they might say that your ability to block with a shield shouldn't improve your ability to block with a weapon. Fair enough. But I think it's fairly clear, given the way Bethesda have wanted to consolidate skills which do pretty much the same thing, that this won't be the way it works. Bethesda will prefer to have a system where your blocking ability is more unified, rather than being independently distributed across multiple skills and perks.

If there isn't going to be a separate Shield/Block skill, then I think it'll work like this. Firstly, there won't be separate perk trees for blocking with weapons. Rather, your ability to block with a weapon will just be governed by the value of the appropriate skill. So, for example, your ability to block with a longsword will be governed by your One-Handed skill. Secondly, there'll be a perk tree for blocking under the armour skill. But, to avoid redundancy, there'll only be a single Armour skill (ie. no Light Armour and Heavy Armour). The value of the Armour skill will govern how much damage is reduced by (relative to the quality of the armour), and perhaps also how much the durability of the armour is reduced when struck. The perk tree for blocking under the Armour skill will feature perks for shield bash.

On the other hand, if there was a separate Shield/Block skill, what would be the perks? If it's a Block skill, rather than a Shield skill, then perhaps there'll be perks for blocking with weapons in addition to perks for blocking with a shield. And then on top of that, there might be other perks for using a shield. Presumably there would be a tree for shield bash... Perhaps a perk for there being a chance that your enemy recoils and staggers after striking your shield, or perhaps a perk for being able to block magic.

Light/Heavy Armour. Following on from the previous point, I think if there isn't a Block skill, there won't be separate Light Armour and Heavy Armour skills. Does this mean that if there's a Block skill, that there'll be separate Light Armour and Heavy Armour skills? Well, not necessarily. It just means that the blocking ability won't be governed twice by two separate skills. But there might still be separate Light Armour and Heavy Armour skills for different reasons. So again, let's consider how the game might get by without them. The answer is pretty obvious: just have a single Armour skill, and have perk trees for different types of Armour.

On the other hand, if there were separate skills for Light Armour and Heavy Armour, what would be the perks? I can think of some possible perks, but not really enough to make the perk trees for separate skills all that interesting.

I think what we might see is that Heavy Armour will, in general, provide better protection than Light Armour. But, Heavy Armour will weigh more, slow down your character's movement and attacking speed, reduce magic effectiveness, be louder. Then there'll be a general Armour skill which governs damage reduction, and the perk trees for different types of armour will play off their different pros and cons. So, for instance, perks for Heavy Armour might include reducing the loss of magic effectiveness, whereas perks for Light Armour might include a perk to reduce its encumbrance when equipped.

Hand-to-hand. Some people have suggested that this could be managed by One-Handed or Two-Handed (and perhaps also Acrobatics/Athletics). Now, I think one thing to notice with this option is that then hand-to-hand would probably only feature as a single perk-tree in one of the skills. I can see the following perks being useful for unarmed combat: (i) direct damage moves, (ii) disarming an enemy, (iii) evading an enemy's swings. Now, the latter two could be divided among other skills. So, the perk-tree for hand-to-hand in One-Handed (or Two-Handed) includes perks for direct damage moves. But disarming an enemy is a perk included under the Block skill, and dodging/evading an enemy's swings is a perk included under the Acrobatics/Athletics skill.

On the other hand, there could just be a separate skill for Unarmed, and these perks are included under that skill.

Sneak/Security. The main reason for merging these two skills is that Security might not have enough content on its own to warrant being a separate skill. Instead, have a general "Stealth" skill, and then have perks for stealth kills, for remaining undetected, for lock-picking, for disarming traps, and so on (some of these might overlap). So presumably the "Stealth" skill would just govern your general ability to sneak and remain undetected, and you use perks for other nice stealthy stuff.

It's difficult to know what to make of this because we haven't heard a whole lot about stealth yet.

Speechcraft/Mercantile. The main reason for merging these two skills is that they seem so similar: Speechcraft is supposed to represent your ability to get NPCs to do what you want by talking to them. Mercantile, in TES, was basically just your ability to convince shopkeepers to give you better deals. It seems like your ability to bargain could either be a perk-tree in Speechcraft, or just represented by the value of your Speechcraft skill.

On the other hand, with the talk about town economies, maybe Mercantile will be beefed up? But I think that's less likely than merging the two skills.

Conclusion. So, based on the above, the only question mark I can fill in with a lot of confidence is that there'll be a separate Block/Shield skill. But that still leaves one Combat skill and one Stealth skill still be filled (or two Stealth skills, depending on how you categorise them).

I think what we'll get is either:
1. Hand-to-hand as the last combat skill (or as one of the stealth skills), and: (i) Security or Mercantile or Light Armour as the remaining stealth skill.
2. If there's no Hand-to-hand, then Athletics/Acrobatics will be considered a Combat skill, and then we'll see two of Security, Mercantile and Light Armour.
3. I find it difficult to split Security, Mercantile, and Light Armour, with respect to how likely it is that they are in the game. On the one hand, Light Armour probably has the least scope for having distinct content from other skills. But Security and Mercantile didn't have a lot different things to do in Oblivion, so they're also a good chance of getting merged with other skills. :shrug:
4. But, finally, that's precisely why I think Hand-to-hand will be in, and why we'll get only one of Security, Mercantile, or Light Armour. I think the right methodology here, when we're discussing plausible skill sets, is to ask: if you think that X is a separate skill, then can you think of a few interesting perk trees for that skill, which basically don't just do the same job that the value of that skill is already doing? If you can't give a positive answer to that question, then that's some sort of sign that the skill has been merged with others, I think.

acrobatics/athletics = merged into Athletics

sneak/security = merged into Stealth

speech/barter = merged into Personality, or Charisma


Thats the 3 missing skills imo

Makes sense.

1. I hope they are removed.
2. I want acrobatics but athletics can go.

Ok here is what i think the 18 skyrim skills are.
I've marked oblivions 21 skills down to make it easier.

:OBLIVION SKILLS:
COMBAT
1: Block 2: Armourer 3: Heavy Armour 4: Blunt 5: Blade 6: Athletics 7: Hand to hand

MAGIC
1: Destruction 2: Alteration 3: Illusion 4: Conjuration 5: Mysticism 6: Restoration 7: Alchemy

STEALTH
1: Security 2: Sneak 3: Acrobatics 4: Light armour 5: Marksman 6: Mercantile 7: Speechcraft

Total skills = 21.

:SKYRIM SKILLS:
COMBAT
1: Block 2: Smithing 3: Heavy Armour 4: One handed 5: Two handed 6: Hand to hand.

MAGIC
1: Destruction 2: Alteration 3: Illusion 4: Conjuration 5: Restoration 6: Enchanting.

STEALTH
1: Stealth/thievery 2: Light Armour 3: Acrobatics 4: Archery 5: Speechcraft 6: Alchemy.

Total skills = 18.

Ok ,i'll explain why i think the skyrim skills,are what they are:

COMBAT: I've left block the same,because it's what you do,be it with a shield ,single weapon,double handed weapon or duel wield.
I've left hand to hand ,because it's fun,they have worked on close quarters fighting ( more intense ) it's a combat art in it's own right,and i believe there would be enough perks for it.
I taken athletics away completely,because i think the PC may have a set speed ( maybe race dependant also ) while jogging,with the exception of weight carried.
We now have a sprint option,which to me suggest's athletics is gone,stamina and weight will now depend on that.
I also believe heavy armour will stay as it is in combat,for obvious reasons.

MAGIC: Ok this is simple,alchemy to stealth,mysticism gone ( moulded into other magics ),and of course we have enchant which = 6 skills,with the others.

STEALTH: Ok i strongly believe,that sneak and security have been joined as one skill.....why?...Because i believe in the world of TES security is a stealth skill,to me it goes hand in hand with sneak ( some won't agree ). If you looked at most of the preset classes in the other games,security was important to rogues,assassins,thieves etc.
Security was needed to break in houses etc to steal or murder.And naturally you would want to do that undetected,so i believe the two go hand in hand.
Plus i don't think there are too many perks for security alone...my view.
Light armour is still important for stealth types,they too have to fight toe to toe sometimes,so need light protection.
I have also kept acrobatics,it can be important to all classes,but vital to thieves,rogues,assassins etc. So they can be agile,leap further,jump on rocks,roll etc.I believe it's vital to that type.
So i believe that may stay....the only problem i have with this is maybe perks,but we'll see.
Now in the GI screens from a while back we saw a skills screen ,and to the far left on that screen was "aft",which is obviously "speechcraft.
I believe there is no need for mercentile,because speechcraft covers that anyway. If your good at talking and getting info ( be it charm.sly,or fear ) off people,you gunna do the same with bartering etc. Your a smooth talker,it makes sense.
Finally alchemy. Alchemy is not magic,it's science,and fits just as well with stealth ( in my view ) as magic,and it also enables a craft for ech type..Combat,magic,stealth,seems fair.
Anyway looking at oblivions skills ,thats what i have come up with and why.
You judge whatever you like about it

I agree with you on the fails, but spears?

I taught I heard in once podcast or interview that alchemy is part of steath or something

When they decided that it had uses in making poisons as well as potions. It's useful for both the thief and mage paradigms, but has become grouped with stealth for the sake of keeping a balanced number of skills per specialization. It's not like people in real life need magic to tell that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightshade can be poisonous.

My hypothesis was this.

Combat
- One-Hand
- Two-Hand
- Hand-to-Hand*
- Smithing
- Block
- Heavy Armor*

Stealth
- [Acrobatics/Athletics]*?
- Light Armor*
- [Sneak/Security]*?
- Archery
- [Speechcraft/Mercantile]*?
- Alchemy

Magic
- Illusion
- Conjuration
- Alteration
- Destruction
- Restoration
- Enchanting.

* Has not been officially confirmed. All others have.
? Merged skills or one dropped in favor of the other.

I hadn't thought about the possibllity of an expanded economy, still, I don't see enough perks between Speechcraft and Mercantile to make two seperate skills.

I do not think that security and sneak automatically go together. A hunter needs to be able to sneak when stalking prey. Guards probably need sneak as well so they can position themselves before attacking (though they don't do this in game they should when attacking a known target). Other possibiliies exist espically since there are many players who use custom classes or wish to role-play a particular character.

The reason I feel that they will be combined barring some sort of trap related expansion of security related skills is while someone who sneaks does not always need to pick a lock, someone who is picking a lock is most likely sneaking. Assuming an Oblivion type minigame or a percent chance of succes system, I can only really see 1 multi-level perk. 1 perk does not make a skill, so where does the perk go? Sneak.

Agreed with both of these... But then that really only leaves Light Armour as the remaining stealth skill. And what would be the perks for that? Not only that, but then there'd also need to be another set of perks for a Heavy Armour skill. And hopefully they're not identical (like they pretty much were in Oblivion).

Some suggestions:
Light Armour perk trees: 1. Reduce encumbrance when equipped; 2. Reduce noise when equipped
Heavy Armour perk trees: 1. Reduce loss of magic effectiveness; 2. Reduce chance of being knocked down/stunned

Don't really have anything else.... :shrug:

Hmm, I don't think there are enough perks in Light Armor and Heavy Armor for them to be seperate. But, who knows?

My Skill list

Combat
- One-Hand
- Two-Hand
- Hand-to-Hand
- Smithing
- Shield
- Armour (Perks for different types / unarmoured)

Stealth
- Athletics (combined with Acrobatics)
- Security
- Sneak
- Marksman
- Discourse (Mercantile /Speechcraft)
- Alchemy

Magic
- Illusion
- Conjuration
- Alteration
- Destruction
- Restoration
- Enchanting

From what todd said there is no atheltics or acrobatics at all.. most likely those abilties are purely stamina limited.. to jump higher and more often one would need increased stamina.. same with sprinting faster and longer.

Fact is I wouldnt be shocked if armor was purely stamina limited as well and didnt have a skill.

That would be the [censored]tiest idea ever

Well answer me these simple questions then..

How would you gain armor skill?

What sort of perks would armor have?

Was armor skill ever any fun?

1. By being hit when wearing armor, duh. Only this time it doesn't matter which one.
2. The ones from Oblivion: weight and movement speed penalties, mostly. I could also think of mitigating penalties to magic, penalties to archery in heavy armor, you name it. The most obvious perks will be "More protection from Light Armor", "More protection from Heavy Armor".
3. No, but neither could we live without it.

From what I read, Mysticism has been removed.

Although this makes me curious...does this mean the spell reflect/damage reflect/spell absorption effects have been removed from the game?

Or rolled in to something like Alteration or Enchanting? Because this makes me a sad panda.

There was to be about 10 perks for each skill(10 stars, some have ranks). What possible 10 perks are just for Shield? 1 handed has 3 weapons, Destruction also has 3(fire,ice,lighting) with perks for all 3 and 1 perk that works for all on them(based on the pic).

If Shield was with Light and Heavy armor, there could again be 3 things like Destruction and 1 Handed.

This is just guess work, but I think people should really be guessing by thinking about perks.

Mysticism spells have been moved to other schools. We already know that Detect Life exist in Skyrim.