The Elvis impersonators do not even know who Elvis was. They adopted the style, the nickname, but don't have a clue about the real Elvis. Idem for the Legion: they pretend to be the roman empire, but they are more similar to the barbarians that torned it apart. The two headed bear it's an other distorted old world symbol. This is Fallout: there is a past so far and forgotten that all the people who try to mimic it make nothing but a parody. In the bethesda's "fallouts" this basic and fundamental concept it's not there, everybody knows exactly who the minutemen were, or lincoln or the redcoats (well the ghoul maybe an old world person so that may fit) or whatever, and they resuscitate the past as if it never died. That's why the bethesda team isn't cut for Fallout: they don't understand the concept, they barely make a '50 themed futuristic and silly world and that's it.

Because that's the one example.

Caesar's Legion and the Omertas are both inspirations from men who were familiar with and inspired by their respective cultures; House lived that culture as his own, Caesar thought the roman inspiration was appropriate given the setting and the problems. There's a "method to the madness," so to speak. The Kings are the lone example of people accidently repeating history in their own way. Likewise, that's where it stops: the Kings are Elvis impersonators in theory only. Elvis is what inspired a philosophy of their own, but they don't even know Elvis' name. It's not about worshipping Elvis; he's just the spark that unintentionally set off an entirely new philosophy. The Kings actually manage to be quite a charming piece of writing because again, you expect that sort of thing to happen with the game providing a homage to old Las Vegas, but how the Kings came to be is pretty unexpected. It's fun to listen to the King tell the story because it connects the dots, and what was initially an "LOL Elvis impersonators survived the Great War" becomes a "so that's how it happened," alongside an appreciation for how realistic it was done. They're just a couple of guys who found a rather curious-looking building, checked out all the stuff, concocted their own (false) theory on what it was, and now Elvis is little more than a symbol for an entire gang's own unique philosophy.

Compare this to the Minutemen. We know very little of them, but already there's good odds these are men that are purposefully using obsolete philosophy to honor history....but that puts their lives at risk. The Kings are utilizing old resources like jackets and hair gel, nothing more. ANYONE who found free jackets and hair gel in the post-apocalypse would be happy to use them. But if we're in a post-apocalyptic world and both single-shot and modern/hi-tech technology exists, you would only feasibly use the single-shot if you can't find anything better to replace it. The Kings also only entertain thoughts of "carrying on his legacy," assuming Elvis was important but only having a basic understanding of who he actually was. The Minutemen...? They're...well, they're essentially playing pretend. It's the exact same as if I asked you to join my new military unit in the Japanese army that wants to pay respects to samurai by refusing to use guns, instead only using katanas, bows and spears. Would you join my unit? No, you wouldn't, because my unit would get slaughtered. The Kings "honor" history in a practical way. Hell, that's a very inaccurate statement because they don't understand the history and they're just saying "look, free stuff. Let's use it. His hair looks cool too, let's copy that and make it our thing." The Minutemen are seemingly honoring history in a downright suicidal way. Logic governs the creation of the Kings (not so much in the sense that their conclusions about Elvis followed a strict logic rather than speculation, but rather that nothing the Kings did broke any sort of logical sense), logic is absent in the creation of the Minutemen.

The overall issue at hand is that there's concern copying history will become such a pattern within FO4 that the writing gets downright embarassingly predictable and at times very stupid. It's exactly why the initial Kotaku leak was scoffed at and mocked: because it's so embarassingly expected that people thought the leak was practically satire. It looked like your typical streamlined, uninspired game and storyline from the get-go.

Granted, that aspect of this thread is speculation. It remains to be seen if FO4 will fall into the trap of "let's repeat history so god damned hard that there's a Boston Nuka Cola Party," it's merely a fear people have based on what we've seen so far. It's arisen in this thread merely because REL highlights just how nonsensical the laser muskets are. It's of course possible that Bethesda could throw a curveball and the Minutemen are indeed just idiots who are killed off very quickly for being so stupid, but is that the impression the clip gives you...? It goes back to the old "we can't die, we have a name!" trope. I don't think we would've heard his name or the name of his group if they were just gonna be killed off.

Alright, real quick, how do we know how the gun works already? It has a crank and a low fire rate, therefore it is an unacceptable weapon to use? By your logic, revolvers should not even exist. What's the point when we have assault rifles, right?

So if I understand you correctly, what made the Kings and the Legion so charming is that they took real-world people and historical events and made their own version of the person/civilization based on their ragged understanding of it. The Kings have no idea who Elvis really was, just like the Legion have no idea what the Roman Empire really was. They just took bits and pieces and incorporated it into their own philosophy and discarded what they didn't like.

However stuff like the Abe Lincoln thing, or the Minuteman thing, They're honoring history EXACTLY the way it happened in their event. The Minutemen are pretending to be the post-apocalyptic version of the Colonial Minutemen, and the slaves basically bash you in the face with the Lincoln thing, borderline worshipping him like a god and going all 'omg free us because that's what Lincoln wanted!!' This is just a little too obvious, especially for a setting where the past is so distant that Abraham Washington, a historian at Rivet City literally thought Thomas Jefferson rode in a contraption that wouldn't be invented until a century or so after his death.

Read through the thread. I'm repeating myself at this point:

Self-charging laser rifles exist in the Fallout universe. They even charge faster than these cranked muskets and can store battery power and shots in order to fire multiple, rather than just one. This would suggest these muskets are archaic, obsolete technology.

Alternatively, let's assume these muskets hit really hard....somehow....because apparently a crank ups the damage of a laser rifle moreso than an actual microfusion cell. Now we have the opposite problem where a MAGIC CRANK is somehow giving a better damage ratio than feeding a Gauss rifle 5 times the energy of a laser rifle for a single shot.

Either way, it makes no sense. It either renders existing technology obsolete (in a strange, magical crank sort of way) or it itself is obsolete and Garvey and his men are idiots.

Your revolver anology just svcks, gotta be frank. No one claims revolvers are superior in damage to a rifle, nor are they used by any group. The only instances in the Fallout universe that I can think of where groups use revolvers as a staple are the Kings and the NCR Rangers. The Kings simply cannot afford better weaponry (they'll tell you this themselves) whereas the NCR Rangers use both sidearms and rifles; sidearms can have their uses at certain times and places, but aren't used as the main weapon choice. The Ranger Sequioa both hits pretty damned hard and I've always imagined it as more of a status symbol rather than a practical weapon that sees usage in bigger battles. Sure enough, you'll never see a Ranger in a battle use the thing unless you attack him suddenly while he's got one equipped.

Someone else has suggested Garvey and his men aren't rich. Again I would have to question this theory, because I somehow doubt the laser muskets would be cheaper than 10mm pistols or hunting rifles. It just seems like a terrible purchase as the technology would demand a decent sum, but it's actual performance would be limited and comparable to guns that are much cheaper.

You think it's simply a crank that's involved in the power of the weapon? As if the laser musket is just a regular weapon with a crank pasted onto it? You have no way of knowing the inner-workings of the fictional weapon, you can't be an expert.

The revolver anology was not exclusive to the Fallout universe. Fire a single bullet from a revolver and an assault rifle at a watermelon and see which one does more damage. But that can't be right... assault rifles operate faster than revolvers. Also, I have read through the thread, I even attempted to say this on the last page. You must've missed it.

it may be self charging like the regarger rifel making it some pre war exsperemental tech that was never ment to see use but since its fallout they now have to use it becose its still a wep

Which laser rifles are self-charging? I honestly forgot, I don't remember using them in any of the games.

Also, if they crank up the laser rifle, does that mean it won't need any ammo whatsoever? That's rather nice.

It's a bit difficult to explain and to put in words, so bare with me cause I'm still thinking on how to best word it.

I have no issue with the Abe Lincoln references in FO3. That's just one example and at least with DC, there's quite a few museums regarding American history (to my understanding. Got family there, never been myself). I also would have no issue with the Minutemen as a lone example.

The cause for concern is just a pattern of Bethesda's writing, with the muskets suggesting their writing hasn't improved. In FO3 they did rely heavily on the whole "'MURRICUH" thing alongside the 1950's. The "'MURRICUH" aspects I'm ok with because again, if there's a city to do those aspects with, it's D.C..

My worry is more that Bethesda does not know how to do anything else. My worry is that they have no original thoughts in their heads, so copy-pasting history is their go-to method for writing. It's not so much that seeing groups like the Minutemen or the Kings is a bad thing in and of itself, but rather if it happens super frequently, then I'd consider it a smoking gun for stupid, uninspired writing. History as an inspiration can be great. Caesar's Legion is a testament to this. Josh Sawyer himself is a history major, so whether you realize it or not, there's actually quite a few historical references alluded to within New Vegas' writing, but it's done in a rather intelligent way that isn't so....blatant? Obvious? It's subtle, well thought-out and planned. Regardless, the groups themselves with historical inspiration are not the issue.

The issue is merely that if all Bethesda is capable of doing is copy-pasting history, then I do not have high hopes for the writing. I'd expect it to be predictable, more focused on making references rather than making SENSE of the references, and like it would get very old very fast.

Just for comparison? In Oblivion, the enemies were far less impressive and inspired than Morrowind. Morrowind was truly alien; everything we saw there was new and different. It was a world with giant fungi, giant insect-like creatures we could use for transportation and...giant floating...jellyfish things. Nothing about Morrowind's setting said "I was inspired by this." It all felt new and fresh. It was so new and fresh that honestly I think Morrowind's setting could be a bit off-putting for some people because it was just that alien to them.

Then came Oblivion. Oblivion had enemies we were familiar with. Ogres, Minotaurs, Bears, ghosts....all the stuff you'd expect from the typical fantasy setting. I noticed this and thought they probably did it conciously and on purpose for the sake of tying the home of men (Cyrodiil) into more traditional fantasy concepts. I thought it was clever.
Then came Skyrim....it wasn't clever. It was them being uninspired. Again we got ghosts, bears, sabre cats and other traditional concepts. One could argue that's because Skyrim is again a land of men, but I would question if Skyrim wasn't purposefully chosen because it allows for lazy writing. I would question if the next location won't be Hammerfell or High Rock just because it'd allow for more of the same.

And now I find myself recognizing that FO3 had "'MURRICH" themes to it and I thought it was fitting given that the city it took place in was D.C....but what if it's not a concious decision in regards to D.C. and instead it becomes all they know how to do?

Tl;dr

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with groups that reference history. There IS something wrong when you overdo any theme, historical groups being one such theme. Seeing a historical group such as the Minutemen follow their concept to the point where it's downright counter-intuitive (they use obsolete tech and seem to have little armor) suggests that Bethesda isn't focused on making historical references be solid, working ideas, but rather that referencing history might be their go-to and they don't really know how to do anything else, which would be a huge smoking gun that the writing will possibly svck.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Recharger_rifle

Uses no ammo, charges automatically over time, is honestly a piece of crap, yet it still fires much faster than the musket. The best variant is the MF Hyperbreeder Alpha, which charges much faster than other Recharger pistols to the point where it's practically an SMG that needs no reload and very few pauses, or a pistol that will never need a reload.

What 'obsolete philosophy' would that be?

I'm pretty sure the laser musket will prove to be a recharger weapon that doesn't require ammunition, which would make it's use quite logical.

And how are the Minutemen playing pretend again? Are not the 'mafia' families running the casinos who were raiders before House tamed the strip with his robots doing exactly the same thing?

Let's not forget that the past isn't quite as distant as folk make it out to be, given the existence of ghouls, databases, A.I.s and eccentric pre-war millionaires who are old enough to still remember it.

It was the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Recharger_pistol and http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Recharger_rifle from New Vegas.

More to the point, how is it such a problem that the Laser Musket could be FO4's version of the Recharger Rifle? I don't understand the argument that it has a historical connection, and so do the Minute Men... so what? How do you know they copy the Colonial Minute Men exactly? We haven't exactly seen an abundance of content involving them.

From the look of the gameplay, the laser musket will draw from your ammo pool. I don't mind it myself; I think it'll fill the niche of "low level energy weapon" nicely and I like the mechanic of being able to partially or fully charge it.

Then get a standard Recharger rifle, which boasts superior charge, firing rate and again needs no ammo? THAT would be the logical purchase, not risking your neck to mimic history.

The Omertas are paid to play pretend, to no risk of their own. Infact, they're provided with security in exchange for playing pretend. Furthermore, they themselves fit the bill. This is not House paying respectable citizens to act like criminals. No, this is a cut-throat tribe accepting his offer to join him, House needs to find a way to clean them up, and then gives them mafia attire, weaponry and tells them stories about how they remind him of the old mafia, and they took to it naturally.

The Minutemen are actively endangering themselves by adhering to history TOO strictly. That's the problem.

longknife logicly the first regarge laser weps wont be as advanced as the ones in nv since we are so close to mit one can asume that laser muskets are some outdated wep mybe the first recharge rifels or mybe the first laser weps i think he probebly just found some old armor that they wher hiding in and that he didnt go out of his way to find old obsilite laser weps becose if he did hes not worth ourer time to even talk to beying that stuped

I think you may be overstating the flaws of the laser musket. The crank isn't nearly as bad as an actual reload after every shot, probably not much worse than, say, a bolt action, and has the benefit of being able to charge up the next shot. During the trailer, it proved capable of one-shotting a raider with a charged, non-critical shot. It's probably inferior to something like an AER9, but I doubt the Minutemen actually have access to those.

wait so it does use ammo mm then its prob some old laser wep i wonder will u be abel to brake em apart and craft reg laser weps or not

I want to know what a crank does to help in any way with a weapon that's powered by a fission battery.

Then things just got even stupider!

I do hope english is not your first language.

Wow, I completely missed the existence of that weapon. Of course I never really used Energy Weapons - except in Fallout 1.

What do we know of them, by the way? Do they all use muskets?

edit:

Well... not necessarily. If it's a homemade [censored] weapon, maybe the cranking is the reloading. Of course I don't have a degree in how laser rifles work, so I wouldn't know

Or maybe it's just because the game's still incomplete and it's not properly implemented yet.

well ther goes that i was hoping for it to be a recharer gun that was a very good gun fron nv hopefully thers a gun mod that lets u turn laser guns into rechargers

From the look of it, I'd guess the crank powers a mechanism that diverts energy into the musket's chamber, which is then released when the trigger is pulled.

The recharger pistol and MF Hyperbreeder were good guns. The recharger rifle was not particularly good.

First off the Laser Musket is not a musket! It is a name for a weapon that needs to be reloaded after every shot. They could have called it a single shot laser rifle but laser musket sounds cooler. So What! As far as how it works I have no idea, however current experiments in chemically based lasers would work like a regular gun were the catalyst for the laser is kept in a bullet like package and then discharged and replaced. This crank would be one way to eject the spent charge and replace it in a hypothetical Chemical Based Laser Weapon. Just because you don't understand how it works does not guarantee it is stupid.

As far as the other nonsense about Bethesda bashing. Fallout 1 and 2 and New Vegas all had cliché groups. Fallout 2 alone had the Yakuza in San Fran for crying out loud. I really feel that people bashing Bethesda have their rose colored glasses welded to their face.

And don't get me started on the whole nonsense for why Caesar's Legion exists in the first place.

Let's face it, if we had seen the exact same footage and info promoting a game called 'Fallout: Boston' by Obsidian Entertainment rather than 'Fallout 4' by Bethesda Game Studios, half of those currently panning it would be gushing instead.

Do you care to actually back up that statement by countering any of the points I've made in this thread?

Or would you prefer to ignore them and make empty statements, because that's all you're capable of doing in a debate?

And on a side note, to a degree that's correct. And it's perfectly reasonable. For example, Avellone wants bombing everything to be canon for Lonesome Road. Do I like this? No. If Avellone were in charge of a New Vegas 2 would I be excited regardless? Yes. Why? Because he's proven he can write competently. Even if he made a decision I find unsatisfying and difficult to swallow, I trust he'd have really good ideas waiting in the wing. Bethesda has only shown a poor track record, of course I'm concerned when the friggin crank gun makes no god damned sense.