Those bodies only look good when standing/posing in carefully crafted poses. I prefer not to think too much about what alien biology their movement implies the moment some animation or, worse, physics take over ...

They are defensive concerning their own opinions. Enough said.

In my opinion too many posters present their opinions as if they were facts. They have not learned how to communicate ideas with much subtlety. Others aren't even interested in debate. They see forums as a kind of text-based PvP: they are not interested in an exchange of ideas, their goal is to dominate.

When you get both of these types in the same thread and when the thread topic is as combustible as 'Morrowind-vs-Oblivion' you have a recipe for locked threads and moderator warnings.

Could you explain what you mean? And why Oblivion falls into the uncanny valley? I've heard about it a few weeks ago for the first time. And that was about how characters looked. But how do you apply this to a RPG game?

When you can't see the flaws of your favorite game, then it becomes a problem, because then you can't discuss improvements. When you over exaggerate flaws/strengths of one game, you're provoking a negative responds. it's shooting spread fire instead of precision. It's like a surgeon operating with a shovel, it's not gonna end well.

When you insult the fanbase of a game, well you get the point.

when you attack someone aggressively, you force them to be defensive, and so they can't be objective, or even try to look at it both ways, because you've just chosen their side for them, the opposite of the one you're on. Which then breeds aggression towards the other side, and so on and so forth, like a vicious circle of hate.

I have more of an observation than an opinion.

It seems that comparison threads get convoluted because in all honestly, you have far too many types of players of both to make a qualitative comparison for each to understand fully:

Morrownd Player on a console (Xbox), who has never seen or experienced a PC or modded Morrowind.

Morrowind Player who has both, the console game and the PC game but never, ever, modded it.

Morrowind Player who only plays the PC game, without expansions or mods.

Morrowind Player who plays the PC games, expanded and modded.

Morrowind Player who plays the console game, PC game (modded and not), and Oblivion for the console.

Morrowind Player who plays the console game and PC games, modded, for both Morrowind and Oblivion.

Morrowind Player who plays the game from a download. Unmodded.

Morrowind Player who plays the game from a download. Modded.

Morrowind Player who plays all TES related games, in every format available. Modded or unmodded.

Oblivion Player who plays the game on a console, without expansion or DLC.

Oblivion Player who plays the game on a console with expansion and DLC.

Obllivion Player who plays the game on a console and PC, unmodded.

Oblivion Player who plays the game on a console and PC, modded.

Oblivion Player who plays the game on the PC only.

Oblivion Player who plays the game on the PC only, expanded and unmodded.

Oblivion Player who plays the game on the PC, expanded modded.

Oblivion Player who plays the game on the PC, modded, with Morrowind on the console.

Oblivion Player who plays all TES related games, in every format available. Modded or unmodded.

These are just a few of the player environments I have seen here watching threads and posts collectively. Seeing this, I can understand all points of view, and why the opinions are so vehemently defended thus. If a person has only seen an unmodded Morrowind, then of course when they play Oblivion, it would look and feel far superior. But, for a person who has a heavily modded Morrowind where their characters look and react very similar to Oblivion, then it stands to reason why they feel that comments such as "Morrowind graphics are terrible!" wouldn't necessarily make sense, when they are looking at a screen with very hi-res skins, textures extraordinaire, and sound effects modded to personal taste. Sometimes, one would think that if the persons involved have never experienced what each and every game can be in every incarnation, they wouldn't state absolutes in respect to that, but it is sadly not the case. Opinions are as emotional as the passions that fuel them, and the world is far from perfect.

For myself, I enjoy both games, but differently. I play one on the PC exclusively, and the other on both platforms(Oblivion). Morrowind offers more to me, because of the thousands of mods available to augment the game. In all honesty, Oblivion is still very young in the modding arena, but this is being changed daily. Eventually, the mods for Oblivion will rival those of Morrowind, depending on the tenacity of the modders and their interest in the games. Time will tell.

Console wise, I enjoyed Oblivion for its visual beauty, and the deer alone was very realistic, having bowhunted deer myself decades ago. I didn't care for the dispostion "wheel" of chance, preferring Morrowind's simple Admire--through--Bribe system. My wife likes it though, and has never had a problem using it. In both games, the emotional attachment was felt more in Morrowind, and not so much the pristine game, but from the mods. I have no qualms in stating that the first time I played Emma's "The White Wolf of Lokken Mountain", I was as tight chested from the dialogue as if I was there myself, a testament to her abilites as well as those that helped her. I guess that is why I cannot understand why some would prefer an unmodded Morrowind if you have access to do so. To me, you are robbing yourself of some truly award winning work and adventure, not to mention the level of artistry from those who have the graphical skills is I daresay better than many who work in the industry for large salaries.

I am not very social and have never engaged in any Morrowind vs. Oblivion discussions, so I will say this!:

The first time I played through Oblivion I remember thinking that while Oblivion was fun, Morrowind was a much better game in terms of story and ambience. However, I've since found Oblivion to have greater replay value. After playing through Morrowind several times and doing all the quests, I am no longer as easily entertained by it. On the other hand, I can still have loads of fun playing Oblivion for hours on end even without doing any quests. In my experience, Oblivion's gameplay makes it easier to find fun things to do that have nothing to do with the game's plot.

You are wrong. The better way to say it is "Oblivion had a major lack of depth in story." Such is the lesson of every professor and text book of English composition. In argumentation, it is understood that what is being debated is opinion. You don't preface your opinions with "in my opinion" or "I think" any more than you preface everything you say with "I am saying that." It is unnecessary, and is consequently considered poor form.

However, saying "Oblivion had a major lack of depth in story" and just leaving it at that is bad too. A supporting argument is expected and required. This is proper way to voice an opinion: you state your opinion and you state your reasons for believing it.

I can realistically deny any statement that says there is no realistically denying it. In fact, my personality enjoys doing it. Absolute statements on subjective qualities are inviting dissent. End of story.

They go bad because someone uses the term "better" without an explanation.

I think that wihle the combat system in Oblivion is a step in the rigtht direction it failed to be what it should have, while Morrowinds combat system was pretty good for what it was.
Therefore I (personal opinion) Like the combat system in Morrowind better, it is a good tractor, while Oblivions system is an aston martin with a flat.

i just said what i thought and why, quite simple now u fight it with an argument or ask me why i think so, but please don′t flame.

there... not to hard, I have just said something like 0.1% of this forum would agree on, and hopefully no big scary bear will have to come around

That probably wouldn't help. Obviously anything that isn't a fact is an opinion regardless of how it's stated, and I don't think that's the problem and I don't think stating it-- how should I put it? eh...-- "more softly" so to speak or with an "in my opinion" or "to me" somewhere in the sentence will help. The problem is sometimes people get really attached to their favorite game and when they see a post from somebody that has a radically different opinion it pisses them off and they go in ready to defend their favorite game and end up saying something that turns into flamebait.

I think education also counts in as a factor. The higher educated someone is the more likely it is that someone will come with (measurable) facts to back up his arguments.

beating a dead mud crab

Of course there are more factors that count in. Education is one of them. Upbringing, attitude towards strangers and experience in life are amongst others. What also counts in is that this is a forum and people tend to forget there are actual people on the other side too. Constructive criticism is welcome while criticism is almost always taken personally.

Its a new trend... And its irritating, I like those discussion of which is best, they always gives me something new to hope that Bethesda fixes in TES V.

In my opinion the bear is cuddly, not big and scary.

I think the reason they go bad is because Oblivion players refuse to believe Morrowind is better.

That's flame bait. This thread is trying to uncover why some people can't discuss the issue of MW vs OB.

I think it's because most people don't have explanations for the stuff i think.

Maybe it only happens this way in my head, but there are only a handful of people I get into arguments with, and here's why:

-I'll state my opinion, not to argue, but just so the devs see it.

-some kid tells me I'm wrong without giving any real reasons other than the fact that I'm elitist and snobbish

-I'll give a well-thought out list of arguments as to why I think what I do

-they'll respond by repeating the same exact thing I just contradicted

-I'll explain my point in different words, in case I was unclear

-they'll repeat the same exact thing again, even though it's been contradicted twice, with no good rebuttal arguments

-I'll get frustrated and either back out or a flame war starts

-lately there are certain avatars that, when i see them, I just don't even read the post, even if I notice they've directly quoted me. My blood pressure is thanking me.


Actually this whole thread is flamebait. This particular OP has also posted passive aggressive threads in the Morrowind forums in an attempt to stir up some drama.

You misunderstood me. I'm not talking about visuals. Here is the original chart.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f0/Mori_Uncanny_Valley.svg/461px-Mori_Uncanny_Valley.svg.png

The idea of original uncanny valley is, when your imitation of real life getting better and better suddenly, while it is better than a previous attempt, it ends up being creepy looking thing, alerting you on its shortcoming features which present on previous attempts but not bothered us to this time. This is about visuals. You can see the chart is LIFELIKENESS-FAMILIARITY.

Now my chart here
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f386/vtastek/morrowind/morrowindmisc/special/uncannyvalleyOblivion.png

is not about visuals. The chart is an RPGNESS-ACTION chart. Note that there is no good or bad in this chart, I would like to play every one of them. It is showing games mixing RPG and Action in various amounts. The RPG uncanny valley happens when you get your action to some degree but at the same time your Role-playing elements go the opposite side of spectrum. So essentially I'm saying Oblivion goes to the action side far when its RPGness couldn't match it. This suddenly alerts us on Oblivion's shortcoming features which present on previous attempts but not bothered us to this time. That is the valley, Oblivion fell. Oblivion was a better game in terms of Action but not better in a classic sense of RPG. The equation suggests that it is possible to combine better action and better RPG, which can make TESV and TES6.

I, personally, prefer Morrowind to Oblivion. That is NOT an opinion, that is a FACT, about an opinion. Anyway......

The real sticking point is that the two games seem to appeal to two somewhat different market segments: MW appeals more to the traditional RPG players, where the character's skills are the main focus of the game, and combat is more of a way to "resolve encounters" than a main point of the game. Oblivion appeals more to the "action" players, with its more "player oriented" combat style, its mini-games, and its arcade-like "perks" and relative unimportance of skills except as a way of controlling levelling (why else would so many OB player take their most important skills as MINORS?).

Both games have elements of the other, so there's quite a bit of overlap, and some players seem to like both almost equally. There are, however, some players who don't LIKE the heavily character-based aspects, and others who don't LIKE the heavily player-based aspects. I've heard numerous complaints by MW players (myself included) who bemoan the realtive unimportance of skills in OB where you can't pick a relatively easy lock even with a highly skilled character because your own reactions aren't that fast anymore, and numerous complaints from OB players that their character should be able to hit something because THEY personally could do it, no matter if the character is completely inept at it or not. The problem boils down to Bethesda's decision to alter its target market for the games, leading to some mutual incompatibility. That doesn't mean that one group or the other is "right" or "wrong", but the "other" game isn't what they want to play, and they're not overly pleased with the prospect of having the next title resemble the game they don't like.

The real problems begin when people start picking out individual comments or people, and targetting them with their replies. That's generally when a big scary bear shows up.

Yep, and I am still here and watching this topic.

Let's try to play nice in this topic, although past experience suggests some of you won't.

This is a tough debate for me, as personally I LOVE both games. The graphics, ambience, NPC schedules etc. make Oblivion so appealing, the combat is fun and has resulted in hundreds of hours worth of gameplay. The story is rich - if not slightly linear - I only have a very few, small complaints about the game:

Firstly, my biggest irk with Oblivion is the whole level scaling. I like to play Oblivion primarily on Xbox 360, as i'm a Mac user, and my game does not run on it. This means I don't have access to Mods to fix what seems like a "broken" system. Before I became aware of efficient leveling, I remember getting to around level 25, and getting absolutely obliterated. Furthermore, I hated the fact that all of a sudden everyone was wearing Daedric armor, when it didn't even exist apparently when I stepped out of the sewers! It made me feel like all the progression I had made with my character was not only pointless, but now even bandits, whom I was killing with ease at Level 3, were now a huge challenge for me.

The compass again felt like an immersion breaker. I don't want my hand held to where I have to go. Mark it on my map, that's fine. But I can [censored] read directions and a map, I don't need to be pointed to the thing.

Thirdly, the whole essential NPC's. I liked that sometimes i'd bump into someone who could turn out to be crucial to the main quest in Morrowind. Or that I could find an item that could be essential to a side quest by simply delving into a random dungeon. I made the world feel alive. However, when they magically "appear" as the quest begins, it's not so good.

This brings me on to Morrowind nicely. Of course it's now 8 years old, 4 years older than Oblivion, technology was much less developed so obviously graphics, NPC schedules etc. were much more difficult to create effectively. However, it's depth of Lore and story made up for it. Not only this, there was a greater availability of skills, weapons, variety of armor and guilds to join. The leveling system was spot-on, it was great.

Unfortunately its sparse Combat system made replay-ability slightly less appealing, because once having a character who's strikes land every time, it's frustrating going back to having to take 20 seconds to hit a mud crab.

Overall I probably sway slightly towards Oblivion, though now I play solely for Roleplaying. Hopefully after two commercial successes in Morrowind and Oblivion, Bethesda can find a happy medium between the two to have everyone satisfied with TES:5

I got tired of the same three songs.
Even if they helped me slog through undead dungeons.