-some kid tells me I'm wrong without giving any real reasons other than the fact that I'm elitist and snobbish

-lately there are certain avatars that, when i see them, I just don't even read the post, even if I notice they've directly quoted me. My blood pressure is thanking me.

I like Morrowind vs. Oblivion threads..

Sure, they get heated, and why not? They're very different games. Those favoring the Morrowind style of game also have a good reason to be upset and on edge because Oblivion is the most recent game and there are real worries that TES is moving away from depth and immersion and towards accessibility and genericism.

Yeah, exactly. And a lot of people don't realize that Oblivion was pretty directed for a younger generation *atleast, I think so*

Those bodies only look good when standing/posing in carefully crafted poses.

Anyway, I'm not going to write the insanely long post that I would like to do, since that would offend more than one person belonging to certain groups of people who seem to think they know the very truth about the Universe itself. So here's the speed-version of that story: NO-ONE GIVES A [censored] ABOUT ANYONE ELSE'S OPINION.

My solution, radical as it may be, is that everyone follows my lead and makes their posts related to the Morrowind vs. Oblivion subject look somewhat like this: "Oblivion and Morrowind were both great. According to me. Good night". Just imagine how smooth that would be, rather than the usual elaborate scientific reports on why one game is better than the other. It's not like it matters anyway.

Oh, and before I forget: Any "facts" presented in this post were merely opinions. Don't get hung up about it.

I mean, think about the Caius Cosade's quest as someone brought up, really really confusing
Players new to Morrowind ive noticed often skip through the large blocks of text, you barely see the Caius Cosades thing, and only get it if you read it through, he is in a remote location in the certain city, (Which you are given no direction to. I dont even need a marker, just say northwest of seyda neen or something)

Also, the whole schedule thing of oblivion is without any question an improvement

I would love to see someone argue that shop keepers standing in the same place for the entire game is an rpg essential, or adds to it. I mean really.

Morrowind had a pretty confusing quest line. The lack of direction turned people off, so whether you like it or not bethesda made a change for the sake of sales.

I wish people would think of it in the market sense. Not think of it as a "Make a perfect rpg game."

I really think that morrowind had a lot more potential, what a lot of people think are just "RPG Essentials" would really just be considered mistakes to some people.
I mean, think about the Caius Cosade's quest as someone brought up, really really confusing
Players new to Morrowind ive noticed often skip through the large blocks of text, you barely see the Caius Cosades thing, and only get it if you read it through, he is in a remote location in the certain city, (Which you are given no direction to. I dont even need a marker, just say northwest of seyda neen or something)

Also, the whole schedule thing of oblivion is without any question an improvement

I would love to see someone argue that shop keepers standing in the same place for the entire game is an rpg essential, or adds to it. I mean really.

Morrowind had a pretty confusing quest line. The lack of direction turned people off, so whether you like it or not bethesda made a change for the sake of sales. I wish people would think of it in the market sense. Not think of it as a "Make a perfect rpg game."

Be careful not to insult one another in here and that can happen easily as saying "Oblivion was made for the young". Maybe because it wasn't.

There will always be Morrowind vs Oblivion debates while Oblivion is the newest game. TESV will either be hated by those of us who prefer the RPG aspects, or by those who prefer the mainstream aspects. (action, voice acting, graphics, etc.). It's impossible to cater for everyone, and it's why Oblivion was such a mistake, imo. It's like making a film for a group of people who like slow paced drama films, and for a group of people who like faced paced action films.

A discussion can only happen when opposing thoughts exist.

If we said, "Morrowind is awesome"

And had 33 posts saying. "Yes it is"

It would not be a discussion.

I think in order to carry on a conversation you need the opposing views; and personally people should be passionate about their hobbies. The creme de la creme of RPGs should attract only the most passionate of fans... devoted enough to discuss items on a forum. If you compare the games, you are simply asking for people to pose opposing opinions and they'd better come with passion behind them.

I don't think they go bad at all, they just are what they have to be. Yet really dude, they mean nothing. No one has ever had their opinion changed. It would be like trying to convince me that my favorite color isn't green, that now all of the sudden because you made some magical argument, I adore pink and will prance around in my pretty new pink outfit, how could I have been so wrong for soooo long

I happen to be one of those that love each of the games with only a few preferences that distinguish one from another, and Arena is the only one that I can say with assurances that I just didn't get into. No argument from anyone could convince me otherwise.

I realize too that the disconnect seems to be for you between the MW and the OB people, but that's cause all the hard core Dagger-folks are so over the flame wars by now since they had their time to fight when Morrowind came out.

I think if you haven't decided to http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1101715-where-can-i-sell-my-pc-goty/, you could see the potential of Morrowind. I also think if you really didn't skip those large blocks of texts, you would see the directions were given. They are given in your journal too. Heck, you even must have papers in your inventory describing whereabouts of Caius Cosades. Also, players new to Morrowind, that I know of, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt5YKmP7ecY. Also I would like to hear about which RPG essentials are mistakes, stationary NPCs isn't one them for sure.

I think it is, how can you feel like you are living in a world when everyone is always in the same place? No living, just standing. Good AI eh?
Also, I was talking about newer players. I beat the mainquest easily, but first time I played morrowind I wanted to do the mainquest.. but I was like 10, and was like... What now? So I just went and joined the fighters guild.

Scheduling is definitely an improvement. You can see it in every thread as being a feat of Oblivion and Morrowind's lack, biggest flaw of Morrowind. I mean NPCs of Oblivon have pretty much boring lives. No vacations, no holidays, all day work and all night sleep. See I am not saying Morrowind is better. I already said Scheduling was an improvement. Maybe only me, but I think there were a lot more potential to it.

No Holidays.. maybe but then again what holidays are there in the lore?
No Vacation.. People often go and visit cities, heck Amadus Phillida even retired! And realistically, thats how it is. Thats how it was, its not like now where people are just going out and doing stuff. Most people had to work every day to make a living.

Morrowind might have a confusing quest line, but it was intentional, it was a story with twists and turns, involving moralities, gray areas and politics. It wasn't "Hey you, you are going to save the world, come" from first minute. I was watching Angel by that time so I had some ideas, it helped. Also there was no lack of directions in Morrowind. Morrowind is full of directions, how did you miss that? Even if you skip those texts, journal has them summarized, you can ask NPCs too, they are very helpful most of the times. I think you should reconsider selling Morrowind, give it another chance.

I disagree, Morrowind was full of hints. Although it may have been "RPG" style, it required much time, and wandering.
M'aiq the Liar has put it best by saying this :"M'aiq is glad he has a compass. Makes it easy to find things. Much better than wandering around like a fool."

Referring to the Quest Compass objections.
There may not have been lack of directions. But there was lack of obvious directions, and you need directions TO the directions in many cases. Do you consider those directions? Its like asking someone, to you know how to get to -insert city here- to which you hear "Oh yeah, just go to that building right there and look around for this map"
Basically. And sometimes its worse than that

PS. I learned English with Morrowind or didn't but it helped. I was playing Quake 3 every single day: Every. Single. Day. Any RPG used to be a major turn off for me, especially no action, hack and slash, isometric views were totally disgusting for me. Morrowind was a GLORIOUS DAWN, A GALAXY RISING ON MY UNIVERSE. I can say a perfect RPG/ACTION game would sell amazingly.

Let's just write about my experience with these two great games.

When I saw Morrowind played, the ugly faces and jerky uptight animation was like a blow in my face and I looked another way without another thought about the game.

After a year or two one of my friends which I had infected with the love for RPG games, told me that he had bought a game called Morrowind, so let's try that.

I had forgotten all about my first encounter with Morrowind and I did not know Bethesda then, so I told him, OK, let's try that, but when I saw the cover, I told him that it was an ugly game, but as you have paid for it then we can try that for a bit and we sat at the game, and let me say that it is a real creepy drug, because you don't know when you are snared, but there comes a time that you look back and see that you have done nothing else.

Especially after you discover the vast fan made treasure island called Morrowind Summit. So there are three games that have wasted my time more than any other games, DOOM because I love level design, Diablo II, pure addiction, and Morrowind, pure masterpiece of game design and the un-paralleled modablity.

When we heard about Oblivion, we could not wait for it, a game like Morrowind with better graphics and combat and the addition of physics and Radiant AI. That was the best game imaginable.

And finally there came a time when we had the installation disk in our hands, and we installed it, and it was our dreams come true. The beginning and the character creation screens were just perfect. The cell graphic, awe inspiring, and encounter with better animated and better looking dastard dunmer, Emperor and guards, really great.

The events that followed the encounter with emperor, in the great dungeon setting, as we learnt about the Oblivion's game-play, was satisfying and I did not mind about having only 21 skills, until I finally exited the dungeon, and WOW, such a great view, unbelievable!

I started to play and that was great, but gradually I found myself starting to power-game and losing role-playing, the setting was beautiful, but did not have the imaginative and unique variance and atmosphere of Morrowind, and you could jump around and do quests without having to look up from the compass very much, you were guided through the quests with a baby sitter by your side, encountering almost a constant amount of challenge, and did not fear going anywhere, and did not need to, as you could just jump around with fast travel.

Radiant AI was a great addition, but was not what that was so hyped about, and physic was fun to play with and added a lot to the game, but could have been used more, and you could fight more immersive, but did not feel your character's progression with the satisfaction, that Morrowind gave you.

Voices were fun for a few hours, but after that the always repeating comments of the few voice actors started to break-dance on your nerves, and worst of all, the standard barrier that the voice acting placed in imaginative quest creation, resulted in less viable quest mods, compared to Morrowind.

The dark fantasy scenery, the deep involving quests, and inter-faction problems and cold wars, the number of join-able faction, the great sense of progression, and I cannot remember the numerous the little missing details, all were missing.

And I would not start on the worst decision of all, the world that changed around your character's level, awful, in Morrowind you had to be really careful where you went, but here you could just look at the compass to guide you and look up to kill the pests in your way and then start looking at compass again.

In the end, your play mate would throw the installation disk at your lap and uninstall the game and look for other games around.

I would not give up so easily, but I had lost my game companion for this game so I waited for resourceful modders to save the day, and I tried to find some solutions for a few game-play problems myself, and modded a bit.

So I can say that Oblivion is great for a mindless, hack and slash, fast paced, casual, relaxing, games that you expect to play and be guided through the course of the game, and do not think much about the addresses and problems, to let some steam loose, and feel less tired after a long work day, but if you want a classic and involving game, in a dark fantasy setting, that require you to think for a bit, and read a few books, and look around for clues, and ask a few people about the problem at hand, then you are better off with Morrowind.

Next, a mindless game? I felt even more role-play in Oblivion than Morrowind, in fact so much of my time was spend finding things in Morrowind I had little time to pay attention to the Graphics, which looking back in comparison could be called pix-elated. The vanilla version of Morrowind is generally unappealing to a majority of the populous, but not on the forums because forum-ers liked the game.
Last tidbit sentence. That is Oblivion my friend. Look for clues may not happen as often but I can name 20 quests that do so. That is how oblivion is. Let me restate it for Morrowind
but if you want a very involving game, in a dark fantasy setting, that requires a lot of intelligence, looking for locations often, and asking un-designated people what to do, then you are better off with Morrowind.

Those were my two cents. B)

Be careful not to insult one another in here and that can happen easily as saying "Oblivion was made for the young". Maybe because it wasn't.

Both games have their good and bad qualities and I promise you I can sit here all day and tell you the problems I have with either one and what I think is better in each one. I can pick them both apart piece by piece and still I love them both.

Really we just keep arguing and debating the same opinions over and over again. Bottom line each have their pros and cons with one being no better than the other except in our individual minds. And one is not less of a person for liking one more than another regardless of which one is to their liking.

True enough, my younger brother is 11. Guess which game he says is "better, by far"?

Morrowind.

I ask him, "why?"

him: the storyline was better, I liked how there were no stupid instructions and green arrows. It made you follow the story better, instead of just wondering around killing stuff. Also, the fact that stuff wasn't leveled quite so strictly.

Myself: Like how you could find some epic weapons and there was only one complete set of daedric armor?

Him: Yeah, like how you had to work to level up before you could do a lot of the quests.... and not to mention the dark elf voices were way better.


So, it's unfair to say Oblivion was made for the younger generation. Then again, my younger brother is very mature and intelligent and loves to read, so he could be the exception.

I can see why Morrowind fans want to say Oblivion was dumbed down for console gamers or for younger players, but I would say that's not very true at all. My brothers and I have always been console gamers (though we have a decent amount of PC games and I do have TES III: GOTY on PC... and after all, you can't play Starcraft on a console (N64 not withstanding). Thing is there are plenty of us who have more of an action game / console background who really prefer the depth of Morrowind over the shallow hack 'n slash of Oblivion.

My little brother just commented that he liked how Morrowind had more creative creatures instead of generic fantasy stuff.... I love that kid.

I think it might just be a laziness thing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling Oblivion fans lazy at all, I love Oblivion too. Just that someone who's having a hard time getting into Morrowind might not be putting all of the effort in to READ. And really, reading is probably my favorite thing about Morrowind. Especially http://www.imperial-library.info/content/meeting-vivec

Perhaps the differences came about through an attempt to utilize a console system they had little understanding of at the time in order to achieve certain RPG innovations within the game so as to draw in a larger medium of people into the Elder Scrolls universe. Such probably was not an intended attempt to dumb down anything, but rather increase accessibility to the RPG universe through an increased focus on mediums considered to be shared by most people, such as story telling, relating to great plot, and much conflict and resolve through a more tangible system than Morrowind offered, which probably was the shiny new fighting system that Bethesda had designed.

That being said, perhaps Morrowind had a greater emphasis on creating a universe and attempting to allow the player to feel as a working part of that universe, not the sole mover of it, but rather another gear in a vast network of gears. Oblivion, the following title, seemed to have a much greater focus on the player becoming the hero, the essential mover of the universe, and savior of all things. Sure, that did occur in Morrowind to some extent, but in no way did it lead on in the start the way Oblivion did. To quote the actual game guide for Morrowind "So basically she's Yoda, and she just told you you might be Luke Skywalker", and "Maesa says you're not the Nerevarine, but could become the Nerevarine". Also, maybe much of Morrowind's foreign landscape and culture helped add to this lost and insignificant feeling, the gear concept. The Oblivion title possessed a lot of elements that would be more familiar to people, such as temperate forests, freezing mountains, social constructs relating to human hierarchy relating to much more traditional Medieval elements, traditional fantasy elements, and the list goes on and on.

In retrospect, fans I think have the most difficult time dealing with a shift in focus relating to the two platforms. Tendency to be bias to one's first game aside, variables such as age and familiarity with the universe come into play, and include individual preference for draw, such as great narrative and action. Those who are unfamiliar with the universe or found themselves unable to connect to it, combined with the present generation's affinty for the technological evolution of graphics and gameplay interaction, might find themselves more comfortable and appreciate of Oblivion. Those who were able to appreciate and enjoy the "off the boat" and "lost" feeling of Morrowind, including the alien landscapes and cultures, as well as the open-ended lore and great narrative offered, were drawn to Morrowind's platform.

These are just a few thoughts.

In regards to why people flame and become defensive; people are biased, they always are. Myself included. People become very defensive of their opinions once there is a perceived threat that claims to jeopardize the survival of their opinion. In order to ensure the survival and validate the existence of their opinion, they must either convince themselves by convincing others that their opinion holds merit, or through reckless and aggressive flame tactics, by choosing to become a threat, usually through an "ad hominom" argument.

There will always be Morrowind vs Oblivion debates while Oblivion is the newest game. TESV will either be hated by those of us who prefer the RPG aspects, or by those who prefer the mainstream aspects. (action, voice acting, graphics, etc.). It's impossible to cater for everyone, and it's why Oblivion was such a mistake, imo. It's like making a film for a group of people who like slow paced drama films, and for a group of people who like faced paced action films.

Once it's out, we'll see plenty of Oblivion vs TESV debates, perhaps the occasional inclusion of Morrowind, but it will likely die out of the debates eventually, once we realise what the Daggerfall fans have already realised.

voice acting/graphics say nothing about whos gonna like the game, and nothing about who it caters to, it could be any genre, action is a vague term too, almost all games have action in one way or another. Oblivion didn't cater to everyone, I know multiple people who can't get into oblivion, because there's too much stuff to do, to much freedom, to much character customization, not enough player skill, to hard, they really have no idea what to do. People who only wanna bash skulls and play it actiony will not even survive Oblivions intro. Morrowind was also the game that opened up to the mainstream market, a game doesn't sell that well just from a niche crowd.

The people you talk about, those who played action games, and got into Oblivion, they actually think Oblivions combat svcks, because they've played real action games, and since Oblivion is not an action game, its combat is obviously subpar to the real thing. The combat is not what they liked about Oblivion, try looking through the praising costumer reviews of Oblivion, you'll see.

I hereby testify that, in all my experience of video games since '96, it is in my strong opinion, if it won't offend anyone, Morrowind may be, again may be, the best game ever.

The emphasis here is on ever. I can totally see myself playing Morrowind 10 years ahead, why because I will be already in 2 years when Connary released his compendium.

Objection: Best game ever is Deus Ex.

A perfect game, Silent Hill 2. I might have said once Undying is the best game ever, it is surely one of the best games horror games with diverse settings, I am so sorry for those guys who quit playing the game after those endless maze of a mansion. I was one, until I decided to give it another try. Warcraft 2 was the best game ever once upon a time, we're debating it with Command&Conquer. Best game ever is a personal taste phrase. It would be a joke to say something like my above testimony on a forum. This is not wikipedia. We share our views, discuss opinions in this forums. I want to know what you think as the best game ever. Don't be afraid, it is protected under freedom of speech. It won't start flame wars. It shouldn't start flame wars.

We can discuss all day for flaws of TES games, but these open world games kick some serious ass, Fallout 3 included. Best games ever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG_fV0r4cX0

Best game music ever.(Don't be surprised!) Now hearing this in main menu is just amazing but then when you're *exploring*, this song starts, oo: , the highest point of pleasure a game can offer and it happens all the time. I know one guy here, who played Morrowind very excessively, thousand(s) of hours of gameplay, did every quest at least once, he finally admits "Morrowind is boring." :hehe:

Edit: Thief. Myst. FF. I must add.

My English failed me. "Also I would like to hear about which RPG essentials are mistakes, stationary NPCs isn't one of them(RPG essentials) for sure."

I don't know how to use pronouns. And I missed "of".

I understand you were young. But there must be a point to enter engaging stories, the earlier the better. I did check Morrowind was a TEEN, that is 13+ right. You might have started a little early.

And I didn't say there was a perfect RPG game, I said if there was one, it would sell amazingly.

Regarding directions and compass, directions in this decade and date is off course GPS navigation. But it wasn't in past decade. You know,"someone in the South Wall Cornerclub should know where to locate Cosades" and "Use the lower door, turn right, at the end of street, northeast house is Caius Cosades'." These are what directions used to be in some time ago. I see nothing wrong in them, these are 100% authentic directions.

I still want to hear those RPG essentials which were mistakes. But you can answer later, have a good sleep. Yes, you won't get away that easily.

Well, to me a discussion isnt really to try to convince, its to... give enlightenment, to try to help people see it from the other side.. so to speak

Oblivion guys say "Dude you are crazy it was great"
Morrowind Guy " LONG --- POST ABOUT WHY THEY THINK IT WAS TERRIBLE " and it usually is insulting and very opinionated, but the "opinion" part is never stated.

Ok, heres what we want you to do, go figure it out.

And side quests (some quests, not all quests)

Ok, do this.

You've arrived at Weynon Priory. Now you must take the Amulet of Kings to Jauffre.

About the directions (I almost forget but it makes me seem like im avoiding when i forget so i checked)
Sure yeah they say that. But it also requires memory, there was no quest update. so if you got lost you have to find your way to the corner club. And ask again, then make another attempting at the directions.

1 My orders are to go to the town of Balmora in Vvardenfell District and report to a man named Caius Cosades. To find out where he lives, I should ask in Balmora at the cornerclub called South Wall. When I find Caius Cosades, I must give him a package of documents, and wait for further orders.
2 Elone at Arrille's Tradehouse gave me detailed directions to Balmora.
5 A patron of the South Wall cornerclub called Caius Cosades "an old sugar tooth," and says to ask the owner, Bacola Closcius, about Caius Cosades.
10 Bacola Closcius says Caius Cosades rents a little bed-and-basket up the hill from the South Wall. Go right up the stairs from the front door, then left at the top of the stairs and down to the end of the street.

Also, sure yeah its called the southwall cornerclub.. But that doesnt really explain where it is. It could just be a nickname?

Deagonx: Hey, what is southwall cornerclub, is it a nickname or something?
NPC: South Wall is a working class cornerclub in Balmora, east of Odai River, on the south end of Labor Street, owned by Bacola Closcius.
Deagonx: shows middle finger.

the guy that said that seems to be a high ranking imperial soldier
He doesn't know where caius cosades is?

Thats what I got out of it. And thats why i completely neglected doing that quest.