Yes, you said "younger generation", but don't you see that comes off as an insult to the older generation that may feel Oblivion is far better between the two? It insinuates they like kids games and it's just not true. Both games were made for gamers and fans of the sandbox rpgs that TES is. Each game is different and they have always said they start anew with each game. They don't target anyone any more than anyone else. And if they wanted to target the "younger generation" they would surely not add the mature content that they seem to put a bit of in each and every game.

I can't say which I like more because quite frankly I love them both. I'm an old woman. My grandchildren like Morrowind most however. I'm not sure why but believe it's because they understand more of the quests. For instance they understand the fed ex quests which are much more common in MW. Go escort this lady to Ghostgate. Go take this booze to the miners and such. All I am saying is don't pigeon hole certain people of an age group or intellectual level or social group or such as the ones who like one or the other game because it's a generalization that doesn't pan out most of the time and comes off as a bit insulting. It's always best just to accept that different folks like different strokes despite their age or level of education or experience or what platform they play on. To say differently is to ignore half the folks on this board.

I've never understood why folks have need to debate something in which there can be no clear winner. Why it matters that someone else does not see things their way. Would we want the series to have stopped after MW? Would we want them to keep remaking the same game over and over never trying anything new? Can we not just point out what we ourselves liked and disliked about each and cease the "tit for tat" bickering and insulting and suggestions that one is dumbed down or the other is stagnant or whatever forever?

Oh wait, no you can't. You must prove your choice is the superior choice. (not you specifically but speaking of each side's individuals.)

Fixed that for ya.

To be honest, I would love for Bethesda to stick to what they know, and what we buy thier games for. I buy an Elder Scrolls game, because I want a rich, in depth role playing experience. This experience has been drained since Morrowind.

Look at various other game series. Sports games, FPS's, etc. Most of them are pretty much the same game, with upgraded graphics, and better AI. And these are usually shallow games, in respect to stories and such, yet they can survive like this. Elder Scrolls has a rich ongoing lore, that always changes, and plenty of provinces to inhabit. That should be what is focused on each time the games change. New, intereseting, immersive lore, and unique terrains in the new provinces. Perhaps slight changes, such as the less cluttered UI after Daggerfall, or clearer instructions on what to do next, or making the world smaller (it shouldn't have been that small, though, imo) but, generally, the series should stay as it is.

From what I can tell, changing the games radically only creates tension between the forum members, such as the Oblivion vs Morrowind threads, because someone doesn't like quest markers, so people debate about it, or someone thinks player skill is more important than character skill, so people debate about it. Bethesda now have many mixed views in thier fanbase, and know that they're going to make lots of people angry, no matter what they do. It's thier own doing, and trying to fix problems will result in something awful, imo.

Also, I can get where the other guy is coming with the Oblivion being aimed at the younger generation. The game wouldn't have been rated "M" if it wasn't for a slight bit of mod in-able nudity.

I'm a huge Morrowind fan boy, and I can be honest and tell you that the game has faults. So please, don't flame me for my honest opinion on a game I've played and loved for 7 years.

Man I know a 9 year old who has completed the whole game except a few side quests and some of the dlc and he loves the game.He is so addicted to redguards and he was 6 when he started playing the game.

In that interview someone posted on this forum, Todd howard talks about the "RPG audience" and the "casual audience" and his experience trying to cater to both without "compromising." Kinda interesting.

I personally think that around 2004, all video games started to follow the same "financially safe" formula with small tweaks and that there really haven't been huge innovations besides in the department of physics. Even the "new" innovation "VATS" is really just "bullet time" from the old days.
Games used to take big risks and invent totally new and unique combinations of genres. The RPG/RTS (Majesty) the FPS/RPG (Arena). Lately, they seem to just take tried and true genres and repackage them with newer graphics and more accessible UI. It's essentially Halo over and over again for consoles and Warcraft II over and over again on computers.

You can see the same evolution in movies only on a slower scale. The early silent films were all short and basically followed the same formula, held back by new and clunky technology, mostly.
From the 30's to the late 40's, movies became more and more innovative, with really unique and risky plot-lines and techniques (like the famous ceiling shot in Citizen Kane). But they were mostly brilliant, albeit very experimental. Then, towards modern days, movies become more and more formulaic. Because once an industry starts to make money, they begin to churn out the same proven formula over and over.

Looked over the thread and can't find what inspired me to make that point, but there it is. I'll keep it up there to see if anyone else has seen this trend, or if I'm just trapped in 2002.

All the time. Nearly all FPS's that companies crap out are Military games, because they sell well. The world is too obsessed with money. But, that's another discussion.

No need to get snappy, though I will admit that my post wasn't very clear. I believe Morrowind has more depth into it's story BECAUSE that was what Bethesda intended. Whether or not it's 'better' than Oblivion is a matter of opinion, but it's a fact that beth worked on fleshing out the lore in Morrowind more. The same applies to Oblivion's gameplay; This time around, Beth wanted a simpler, more 'epic' story, while focusing on the gameplay and graphics.

By the way, I started with Oblivion and thought Morrowind was boring and confusing too, y'know. The I sat down and gave it a chance. Guess which one I like more now.

It's understandable why companies tend to go for financially safe games. Look at how well Okami sold. Or Beyond Good and Evil. Or Ico. The games that are most typically held up as examples of art within the medium mostly tend to sell very poorly. We as consumers (myself included) have allowed the industry to get to this point by not supporting talented, creative studios, and allowing them to disappear or be svcked into a larger corporation where they become part of the well-oiled sequel machine. And when those big publishers do take a chance (Mirror's Edge), we again use the persuasive power of our wallets to reinforce the message that we don't want different, we don't want creative, we pretty much just want WWII shooters and JRPGs. Not saying that everyone in this thread is guilty of this all the time, just saying that it's hard to feel too sorry for ourselves when, for the most part, we're to blame.

^what he said

Never! I refuse to believe! its going to be epic!

*sends good creative and techy vibes to beth HQ*

(Ico is epic. was also hard to find at the game store, and wasn't publicized well at all, I only heard about it from randomly stumbling across game mag review... a mag I didn't(don't) buy)

Yep. I think the reality is that many genres are dying out, and others are coming to the forefront. MMOs, military FPS, and Sports seem to be the big sellers right now and have been for several years. Other genres like RPG and Racing tend to mostly stay under the radar but have a few breakout games here and there. However, if a company wants their games to sell, then they're going to gravitate towards the genres that are doing well. Sports seems unlikely, but I think there will definitely be more MMO and FPS elements in TES V. You have to go where the market takes you if you want to be successful, and right now that market's very narrow.

Except that this is bad news for us gamers. There are still companies making innovative, in-depth games, but for the most part they are very small, and have no illusions about making a lot of money. I highly doubt Bethesda is going to go that route. Like I've said before, I think that if Bethesda were to put a lot of work into making this TES V a creative, ground-breaking, and highly immersive experience, they would end up with the next Grim Fandango or Planescape Torment: Games that received heaps and heaps of critical acclaim, and are still considered legendary within their respective genres, but which had pathetic sales because they weren't what the market wanted at that point. Frankly, I think the company's too big to go for that option. They'll probably find a way to make the game more appealing to the WoW and COD crowds while still keeping it fairly TES-ish.

My ultimate fear is that within a few years Bethesda will have gone the same way as Lucasarts, and many other studios: A company once respected for making excellent games which has turned to churning out generic products for the sake of milking one or two successful brand names. And sure, most of the games won't be terrible, and a few of them will be a blast and have a few cool new features. But you'll still look back on what the company used to be and wonder "What happened?"

I think this is just what mass-media does. Like the music and film industries before them, game companies are looking at two options: Give the people exactly what they want in an established formula that they feel comfortable with, or head underground.

I agree with this for the most part in regards to the tastes of majority of gamers and their influence on what devs produce. But I also don't think games like Ico are expected to be big sellers by the people that make them. Mirror's Edge on the other hand I think was expected to potentially sell great, I still have a copy of the game myself. On the whole the artsy games probably have themselves to blame partially. Ico has a very "silent" atmosphere and is a personal type of adventure.

Even Shadow of the Colossus which you'd expect to be "epic" also has a very muted feel to its atmosphere. Both games kind of hurt their own selling power by selling themselves short on intensity, vibrancy etc I think games that were in the past catered to hardcoe audiences or cult followings (Planescape Torment, Deus Ex 1 as examples off the top of my head) would sell better now because of the technology and better exposure in a more involved game industry.

Personally I don't think this had any effect on how Oblivion was made though. Oblivion from the start had to be more accessible than the previous TES games, as the technology eliminated any margin for error with regards to awkward visuals or gameplay. This will usually result in streamlining abilities/gameplay elements, thus eliminating surplass skills or attributes (although I think a few weapons were missed and new elements new to the series could always be added on the back of Oblivion's success).

On the artisitic side, with Shivering Isles Betheseda showed they could have crafted a more fanciful environment for Cyrodiil if that was their vision for modern Cyrodiil. In the end those design decisions looked to me to be inspired more by their artistic vision of Cyrodiil more than making sales. Improvements are always there to be made, but Oblivion is hardly the type of game I'd recommend to a casual gamer.

EDIT: Which brings me to another little idea, if Black Isles splinter groups and devs could remake something like Planescape with current technology and more robust immediate gameplay (with RPG elements under the hood of course) it would sell well -absolutely guaranteed. To me big, ambitious RPGs will always sell well (in this market) unless they have very flawed, awkward mechanics.

Yeah, I agree. I think Oblivion was more experimentation with questionable results, rather than "selling out."

However I still feel it would suit Bethesda and it's fans if they churned out a lot more fast-paced, visceral games, like other companies. Then, reserve the Elderscrolls series for when they're ready to make a real involved RPG-y RPG.

Look at how many years Blizzard spends in between the releases of it's most popular series'. They always stay very true to the previous and they always sell very well.

I think Bethesda may have hurt itself by "starting fresh" with every Elder Scrolls installment. Because now different people envision entirely different things when they hear the word "Bethesda", and no matter which direction Bethesda goes in, people are gonna be disappointed.

I just gotta disagree with the first post. If you know anything about writing, then you'll know that the plot of Oblivion WAS shallow and cliche. Of course, Morrowind's was too. There's wasn't anything unique about either one of them. There are facts. It's not all opinion.

'Course, saying either one is the best game of all time is opinion. You can't just say that because you enjoyed one over the other.

Yeah but most games have pretty shallow storylines. Generally speaking, the storyline is essentially just a vehicle for the gameplay. A great storyline is a plus, but it's not why I play the game. Especially with a series like TES, where the game could have no story at all and a lot of us wouldn't even notice, because we're too busy out making up our own.

Even story-heavy games like Final Fantasy are pretty mediocre, in my opinion. The storylines are usually pretty good as far as video games go, but when you compare them to more robust mediums like film and literature, they don't really hold up. Admittedly, that's a completely unfair comparison, because video games have so much more to worry about than plotlines and character development, but I'm throwing it out there anyway. I guess I'm saying that TES V could leave out the main quest altogether and I wouldn't really complain a whole lot, though I'm sure some would.

I love both games; I’m new to this forum so I haven’t xp a big bad bear yet, nor did I know that there was a big riff between the 2 groups of people before today.

For me I fell in love with Morrowind style of game first, cheating and loop holes became a way of life to play the game, almost nothing was out of the realm of possibilities.

Now Oblivion kind of took that away from me, made the game a little too fair.

Don’t get me wrong I enjoyed playing Oblivion the first time just as much as the first time with Morrowind, maybe even a little more. The Oblivion had flare and moved, I didn’t have to spend an entire 2 days just learning how to play, because the game was over in days.

I would like to ask this; what was the first thought in your head when you finished the main quest in Oblivion or realized that you've finished the main quest? And for those that can remember the first thought in your head when you finished the main quest in Morrowind, please tell me what that thought was too.

And if you want to go deeper, tell me your thoughts on the 2nd time you started a new game/character on both.

The 2nd time around is what separated the two games in my mind, but I’m curious to find out if you guys had similar thoughts as well.

First thought upon completing the MQ in OB: Let's see what i can do next
I never actually finished the MQ in MW without cheating a bit, but my first thought was: Is this it?

OB 2nd time: "I can't get past level 4???"
I have had this several times. I made characters that didn't level up for quite some time, or characters that leveled up too fast, which made enemies too strong too fast. Which forced me to think about character creation e.g. what skills govern what attribute? That takes away freedom and i like my freedom.

MW 2nd time: "Walking .... -sigh-"
The threshold to start another character in MW became too high for me to truly enjoy it. A little bit exploring became a hassle. No towns around, no money for almsivi intervention, no mark nor recall and then you'd have to -walk- back the trail you've just walked. -Sigh-

Come to think of it, MW is slow-paced, OB is fast paced.

I feel Oblivions storyline could have been made better, more epic. It's the small things. I'm walking down talking to a person, I'm the fighters quildmaster, the archmage, the hero who saved the empire from Mehrunes Dagon, etc, ad nauseum and all the townsperson does not even acknowledge my status. In Morrowind, when I accomplished feats, it truly fealt like the game world acknowledged me, as if I made a difference.

In Morrowind there are not leveled creatures, so in the beginning surviving can be difficult, but it's definitely fun once you advance to a distinguishable point. I like how in Morrowind as you level up, opponets don't become punching bags that go on and on and on with health points like in Oblivion. I also like how in Morrowind a lot of the treasures are hand placed and not completely random. In Morrowind there are valuable items in the wierdest places, which is great in my opinion because it forces you to actually look carefully.

In regards to the scenary and weather, wasn't Cyrodil a swamp at one point in lore?

I believe that without a doubt, if Morrowind was given the best graphics right now, the map made bigger, cities made bigger, more Great Houses joinable, more quests, more skills, etc, it would be the greatest game so far to grace this world. Now bear in mind when I say "update," I wouldn't want to take away anything from the current version or change any lore/quests, only add to it. And that game right there would trump Oblivion in every way, in my opinion of course.

Just keep in mind that Morrowind is an older game. Oblivion has the advantage.

No, a jungle. From the Pocket Guide to the Empire:

"Indeed, if the history of the Nords is the history of humans on Tamriel, then Cyrodiil is the throne from which they will decide their destiny. It is the largest region of the continent, and most is endless jungle. Its center, the grassland of the Nibenay Valley, is enclosed by an equatorial rain forest and broken up by rivers. As one travels south along these rivers, the more subtropical it becomes, until finally the land gives way to the swamps of Argonia and the placid waters of the Topal Bay."

No idea why Bethesda changed it for the game. As far as I remember, not a single quest or storyline needed it changed to work.

Hmmm... Maybe Bethesda wanted it to be more appealing to the average person, or they didn't feel they had the capability to design convincing swamps?

But I must give credit where it's due, Oblivion made a massive improvement in the stealth style of play. I really enjoyed playing as an assassin, or anything stealth related.

Swamps? Why swamps? A jungle doesn't have to have many swamps; check Borneo for example, it's mostly mountainous jungle and mangroves near the sea coasts (but Cyrodiil doesn't have many coasts anyway), at least it was before the humans started a mass deforestation ...

I'd say yes to the first. Oblivion's Cyrodil feels like an attempt to cash in on Lord of the Rings ("Hey look guys, it's like Middle Earth!").

Oblivion was much better for assassins, but much worse for thieves (there wasn't really anything interesting to steal outside of some of the quests they gave you... OOO changed that though)

I think you summed it up well!

MW was a slow pace, with many layers and you spend more time figuring stuff out then actually playing the game. After finding out the first time that I could make constant enchantments until the time when I actually made a constant enchantment was almost 16 hours of game play, I had to sit there and figure out every little step along the way. I woke up from my coma a month later thinking “what did I do with my life”? 2nd time around for me in MW I woke up years later, without bothering to bet the MQ and thought to myself "what did I do with my life".

OB I could jump into at any point, fast pace, didn’t have to learn how to play. I enjoyed every minute of the game. The game never frustrated me until got to the end of the game or realized that I got to the end of the game. My 2nd time around I did everything else other then the main quest and spent alot of time playing around with custom class, like you I wanted to play the same game but from a differant angle.

Now I personally prefer Morrowind – slow pace, multilayer style. As appose to OB fast pace dash n’ slash.

The 2 different groups of people’s preferences to the two different styles of game play is why I think these comparison always end bad. Morrowind is my favored game of all time and Oblivion is my second of all time. Both games would stand alone on their own two feet, its fine to compare, but Oblivion is not called Morrowind part 2.

I love how this has turned into an Oblivion vs. Morrowind thread.

Most people who liked Oblivion better played it first. Many people who played Morrowind second still prefer it.

There are two reasons for liking Oblivion more. The first is it's graphical superiority, the way combat is controlled and how other functions of the game...function.

The second is that it is less confusing then Morrowind, you do not get lost as easily, it's easier to start the MQ, you can't be prevented from joining a guild for not having the proper prerequisites.

My argument is that that for one, graphics must improve, they are not unique to the game, only the time period in which it was introduced. If Oblivion was released in 2002 and Morrowind in 2006, maybe 20% of Oblivion fans would prefer Morrowind.

More important is how Combat, Magic, and Stealth are actually controlled in game. That is a design decision. Morrowind could have had combat very similar to that of Oblivion, but it was contrary to the system of pen and paper stats they had set up. I personally do prefer Oblivions combat, but at the same time find Morrowinds satisfying for a different reason. Some people don't understand why they "miss" so many attacks. I don't understand why if I've made so many successful attacks, my opponent is still not dead. It should not take 40 arrows to kill a bear...unless 30 of those arrows missed.

As far as Oblivion's "streamlining" is concerned, I am against it. I don't care that you couldn't find this guy. He's there. Yes, the directions were poor and sometimes straight up wrong. But that's a problem to be solved by double checking your scripts, NOT giving players a magic compass. GPS is an invention of the modern age, why don't we just get rid of horses, give players a car with factory installed Tom Toms?

If you made a barbarian character good at bashing with axes and wearing heavy armor, with no skills for magic...you might have trouble making it into the mages guild. Only a few people in the world are doctors, artists, and writers at the same time, and many more people have trouble just flipping burgers. If you want to play in all the guilds, make a middle of the road character. Or save up gold to pay for training.

I think liking Morrowind more is an opinion. I think it being a better game is a fact. Morrowind having more content, and being more realistic, more mature, and more developed are facts. If you saw a paper list of all the stats of Morrowind and Oblivion, you would probably choose Morrowind. There are more quests, more weapons, more armors, more factions, more NPCs, more dungeons, more dialogue, more spells.

Oblivion added horses. And arrows that stick into things. And spoken dialogue about mudcrabs. It was more fun to get into a swordfight, until you gained too many levels and all of sudden the goblins are stronger. The AI was...unimpressive, and could have been handled with scripts. Yes it was easier to find the people and things you needed for quests. But is that so good? If you had a game with one city, with one building, one dungeon, one guild, and two characters, you would never get confused. Go to building. Talk to guy. Join guild. Go to dungeon. Find Guy #2. Profit. Game Over.

I am curious if someone out there prefers Oblivion for any reason other than confusion, graphics, or gameplay. Did it add something Morrowind didn't have? Was the story more rich and compelling?

Very good points, I agree on everything.