Well I would get this on the PS3 over the 360, just to suport mods on consoles. Problem is.........STEAM! I am on a freaking console, I shouldn't need Steam. ARGH!

Guess it's another game, I will not be getting.Or just for the 360 then, since I find Microsoft the less evil of Steam.

Really? Why is that?

Microsoft is not evil. Even entertaining that notion is just ridiculous, Emperor Palpatine is evil, Sauron is evil, Microsoft is trying to make money. If you don't want them to do that any way they can, stop buying their products.

Now, for mods on consoles: If it worked, cool, I would still prefer to mod on the PC. Even though the PC is by far the least safe market for games in temrs of piracy and what not, it's still the best for modding. You have far more control on a PC than on a console, on a PC you can do pretty much whatever you want, while on a console you can do what Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo will allow you to.

I know you can hook up a keyboard and mouse to a PS3, and that would be absolutely necessary for say the GECK to work there, a controller is not good enough for that kind of software. It sounds to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you haven't even touched a program like the GECK, really gotten a feel for how complex it can be. I'd recommend doing that.

I don't care either way, I will always be getting my moddable games on Steam, and if performance and visuals turn out to be more important to me with any given game, I'll get in on the 360 or PS3.

^ Basically This

You can add in tools to create levels, mechanics, etc..., but it's still closed off in the game itself and won't equate to modding. Console companies are VERY protective of the ability to add mods to their systems because it cost $$$ to research + develop those consoles. Since it cost that money they want to see it returned back and in an even greater capacity.

At the moment the only way I see a possible "Modding" like you would see on the PC is if things were done like Valve is doing with L4D2. With L4D2 they are bringing community mods to the console games, but it has to be done through them since they have the stuff to make it work on the console. It seems simple enough as switching the entities from PC to 360, but I highly doubt that.

1. Mods typically use a language specific to the game and its engine. Not just to protect the users from malicious mods, but also to make it simpler to write. These aren't programming languages. Anything you could modify within the language would be easily deleted or disabled by the user.

2. Most likely not, they'd treat it like the maps on games like Far Cry 2, Halo 3 & Reach, or any other number of games that allow map creation. It'd be handled in-house.

3. That depends on the tools, not that it's on a console. In fact, since console users don't have varying hardware, there are not as many pirated versions, updates are more easily distributed, and you have no need to deal with typical OS/random top level problems, it sounds like the opposite of torture.

The only issue I really see with console game mods is that there isn't an easy way to manage files, the hard drives are tiny, plus the typical dangers of console gaming ( knocking over your console, red/yellow rings, games breaking ).

If they created a decent SDK I'd love to start modding for consoles.

I don't see what all the fuss is about honestly. You chose to spend money on a console and not a PC, stand by that choice. You are not entitled to anything, certainly not modding which is a courtesy extended by the developer. I appreciate that Bethesda lets us mod their games immensly, because I know that they are spending time and money just to satisfy a tiny minority of their paying customers, it is by no means something we are entitled to.

You can't use mods on consoles, tough [censored], live with it.

Reneer was talking about the existing Construction Kit / Creation Kit. Bethesda is unlikely, at this point, to invest in creating a customized crippled version of the CK for console use.

And trust me, Reneer knows exactly what the Oblivion scripting language is capable of and how easily it can screw up your game, and probably your console. He's an experienced modder with significant scripting experience under his belt.

Didn't say you couldn't do those things - doubtful on corrupting files, though. Also, I never asked for a console version of the GECK or CS. Also, scripting experience isn't very intimidating.

Your whole post just makes me want to rage.

Then what was your response about?

You responded to Reneer's list of four things that can be done with Oblivion scripting language with some talk about specific languages that has no impact on the ability to do that.

You responded to his statement that they would have to authorize the mods with a comment about treating it like maps, despite the fact the CS can add nudity, six, extreme violence and a large number of absolutely criminal things if the modder wants it to.

You responded to his comment about the difficulty of modding on a console with a comment about the tools used, despite the fact that almost all console development is done on PCs because consoles actually can't handle proper development tools

Was your entire post about some alternate modding setup that has absolutely nothing to do with anything Reneer was referring to?

edit: Maybe you didn't realize this thread was moved from the Skyrim forum and was originally about adding Skyrim mods to the consoles?

I am very well aware of the scripting language that Bethesda uses for both Oblivion and Fallout 3 / New Vegas. I also know the difference between a programming language and a scripting language. I know how to screw with someone's hard-drive and computer using the scripting languages that Bethesda uses. It can easily be done with a few lines of code. It's not all that difficult, either.

Map creation, as you know, is very different from mod creation. Plus, what would be the point of "porting" some mods but not others to the consoles? It would essentially either become a popularity contest, or be woefully inadequate in scope.

I was referring to using the console for modding in its entirety - scripting, modeling, animating, etc. And what does lack of varying hardware, less pirating and (somehow) updates being more easily distributed have anything to do with modding?

Consoles, even with mods, would never be able to see any of the massive texture mods that require better hardware than consoles currently have. Consoles would never get to see mods that add gigabytes worth of new material (like Nehrim).

Plus, this is all hypothetical. I will be flabbergasted if Sony and Microsoft ever allow user-created mods (on the scope of the ones created for Oblivion and Fallout 3) to grace their consoles.

You've obviously got more modding experience under your belt than I do, so you said it better than I did. I agree completely, not that I can really disagree with facts.

The point to what I was saying is that you couldn't harm someones console, just their game.

Storing a map on a server is not different at all from storing anything else. I don't know where porting came in.

Uh, same here. What it has to do with modding is debugging - the proposed problem.

A lack of texture mods isn't a big issue for most people. Yeah, exactly, "the hard drives are tiny" as I said.

It is entirely possible to harm someone's hard-drive with a few lines of code. It is also just as possible to place an obscene amount of polygons on the screen that cause the videocard to overheat (especially on consoles like the Xbox 360). I'd consider both cases to cause harm, even if a small amount.

Porting was my way of referring to a company having to validate / authorize any mods that were to be delivered through official channels. You may remember several years ago when some "bad" mods were released on Planet Elder Scrolls - they didn't do anything serious, just messed up people's save-games. It's that sort of thing I'm talking about.

Quarl's Texture Pack III has been downloaded 250,000+ times (and that's only looking at TES Nexus and PES). And that's just one texture mod. OOO, one of the most downloaded mods, would likely never be able to run on consoles. And god help someone if they tried to get FCOM running on a console!

Regardless of what the article says, there's a few observations from this thread I'd like to take into consideration. The first being that it's very well clear that many console users would like the ability to mod. (some's desire to mod consoles is so severe it has driven them to breaking the EULA to do so) Another observation that I see is that PC users are vehemently opposing the fact that it may be possible, to some small and restrictve degree, be happening in this current generation of consoles. Also, I see some implying that console users couldn't possibly know how to alter a game without causing severe damage to hardware or software, almost as if PC users are completely infallible when it comes to modifying content. With the success of games like LBP/LBP2, ModNation racers, The Forge in Halo, etc, it's abundantly clear that while not full blown mods, console developers are getting more comfortable allowing end users to create their own content, and from a marketing standpoint, adding the ability for full blown mods on consoles would only be the next logical progression. So, would it be all that unbelievable that in the next generation of consoles, that features may be added to allow console users to design mods? Sure, mods have been, and for the most part, will continue to be PC exclusive for a long while yet, but I can see the day when there will be little distinction between console and PC players, and their ability to modify game content. I know that a lot here will disagree wholeheartedly with this, and some may predict the downfall of gaming in general if this were to happen, but again, I believe it's only a matter of time. And please. Don't take me wrong. I type this as I have several tabs open browsing for computer parts, so I can build a PC to play Skyrim, complete with all it's inevitably mind blowing mods. But will I begrudge those on consoles if they hypothetically were given the ability to mod? Definitely not. The platforms we decide to play on are just that. Platforms to play our games as we see fit. And nothing, including the ability for consoler's to build mods will ever change that.

All the creation items you mentioned (LBP, ModNation Racers, The Forge) are not even in the same ballpark as the tools given to modders through the CS and the GECK, though I see your point that game creators are (slowly) getting around to the idea of user created content.

But, even if modding was allowed on consoles such as the Xbox 360 and the PS3 (or their successors) it will still pale in comparison to the mods available on the PC.
a. This is because the PC allows mod users to use tools such as Wrye Bash, and modders to use the Oblivion Script Extender. Which, because these tools are not made by the game producer, will never appear on game consoles (because running unsigned code is a big no-no).
b. The day after consoles are released, they are outdated. This happens for PCs as well, but because PCs have the ability to have components switched out, PCs can be constantly kept up to speed with the latest developments. The Xbox 360 and the PS3 are both 4+ years old now, which means, basically, that they are using 4 year old graphics technology and have limited RAM.

Simply turning off the game and uninstalling the mod would solve this. What I'm getting at is, unlike with programming languages, in order for anything malicious to happen due to mods the user must 1) have the mod installed and 2) be playing the game. You cannot create a virus with a mod.
You can overload a hard drive or overheat a graphics card, but the time it'd take to do so and the state their game would be in - unplayable to say the least - would make pretty much anyone stop playing before their hard drive is filled or their graphics card overheated.

If 250,000 was a very large percent than I'd agree, but millions of copies of Oblivion were sold. Also, countless other awesome mods would be able to be played. This aspect of our discussion seems to be geared more toward glass half empty/half full, though.

And I'm pretty sure I clarified that I know they are far and away, not the same as modding.


And here is where I think you missed my point. As of the current generation it's not possible to use unsigned code, but if the major console developers see that user created content is taking off in a big way, and again, with past successes showing it can and does work on a very large scale, concessions, or tools would be made available in the next generation to allow for such things.
They won't stand back and loose console sales to PCs, they'll just design their products to do more. Look at the innovations made from the last gen to the current gen. Many asked "what would I need all that for?" and now years later, everyone's asking why more functionality hasn't been added yet. Take the current generation for instance. They already have the ability to do many things a PC can. Hell, most Smartphones can do many functions of a PC. To think that consoles won't evolve with even more functionality in the next generation would be foolhardy. Even the PS3 has the ability to upgrade the hard drive, using standard issue PC components, not proprietary gear, and in the next generation I could easily see being able to switch out other components as well. Again, I'm not defending either camp, but progress is just that. As technology moves forward, so will the functionality of everything else. It's time to concede to the fact that gaming consoles aren't just for gaming anymore.

I never said it was a practical method of harming someone's console. Just a method.

And the hard-drive issue would be much more devastating than the graphics card issue, simply because you would need to remove hundreds, if not thousands, of save-game files. And I am aware that a virus cannot be created via a mod, since mods are not executable.

Millions of copies of Oblivion, yes. However, that millions number has to be subtracted by the number of millions sold on the Xbox 360 and the PS3, in order to reach the number of copies sold for the PC. And, while that percentage would still likely be small, there are also other mods that would never see a release on a console, namely those that use Wrye Bash, OBSE or any third-party tool to aid in their use. Which is, suffice to say, a lot of the mods out there.

Sorry, I didn't catch that in your post. My mistake.

Unsigned code? You've got to be joking. No console manufacturer will simply allow unsigned code to run on a console. That would be like shooting themselves in the foot. With a nuclear bomb. Better technology does not equate to manufacturers allowing people to run unsigned code.

Your argument essentially seems to boil down to that consoles will slowly morph into cheap PCs, but without keyboards. And without unsigned code.

Touche Reneer, but I'm all out of interest for this topic.

I said that concessions, or tools would be made to allow such things. Sure, they might not be able to run "un-signed" code, but what would stop them from creating or licensing such code in order for them to continue to compete?

I just can't fathom that during the board meetings for ideas on the next gen of consoles, they'll dismiss all the progress in gaming and mods, and just say: "Then Let them buy PCs"

And like Capital, I have run out of interest as well. It's all hypothetical anyway, and years off at best. Good discussion though. :goodjob:

This is a board meeting we're talking about, remember. Reality and logic as we know it does not apply.

If you want mods just buy a PC.