I'm not sure if OP is talking about tree branches or NPCs.

It is odd to me that so many people are pining for features in past games that struck me as being a major nuisance (carrying around hammers to repair armor/weps every 5 minutes, unintuitive alchemy) or were simply implemented differently this time around (perks vs. picking whatever attributes had a +5 next to them). What many are calling "dumbing down" (usually while taking an unwarranted and immature swipe at "console gamers", as if being elitist somehow makes them more sophisticated) I see as intelligent streamlining, and I've been playing these games religiously since Daggerfall. A lot of complaining about broken systems too, as if it wasn't possible to abuse loopholes in the older games. Even complaining about lack of classes, when either way you're really just playing the character you want to play. Skyrim just doesn't have the little "Spellsword" written next to your name this time around. In fact, I quite like the organic, "clean slate" approach Skyrim takes. And to those of you talking about how this is a glorified console button masher, did you play different games than I did? Did Daggerfall, Morrowind, or Oblivion have some amazing combat that I'm not remembering? I mostly recall mashing the mouse button (or awkwardly swiping the mouse around in the case of DF) in those too, except then I was praying for a winning roll that would actually allow me to connect for the first ten hours or so when all my combat skills blew. Wow, so much more advanced and intelligent. Fighting in TES has always pretty much svcked, you just can't get away with crafting ridiculous OP spells now or getting your hands on the best weapons in the game with a flight scroll early on.

Are there things I miss or would change? Of course, I don't think any game is perfect. The variety of spells has taken a major hit, and while I appreciate weeding out some of those pointless spells nobody used anyway, this is perhaps a bit much. The UI was quite obviously designed with console users in mind, and while it's awesome on a controller, it kinda svcks on PC. The much-vaunted dragons also present little challenge later on, and I'm occasionally disappointed to see one get finished off by something ridiculous like a bear or a troll when I'm in the middle of a fight. I won't bother touching on the bugs, because this is a Bethesda game and it's to be expected. But I actually find Skyrim far less unreliable than previous games at launch.

Skyrim ultimately succeeds in the one way I wanted it to most; the one reason I love this series more than any other: immersion. Immersion in a massive fantasy world that's rich in well-conceived lore that I can explore to my heart's content, whenever and however I choose. For those incredible moments when you crest a mountaintop and see an icy lake below while an aurora shimmers above in the night sky, or see the spires of Solitude through the mist in the morning sun for the first time. For the joy of the journey and of discovery. How anyone can claim this game is "dumbed down" when it still provides these things in spades is beyond me. I think it's sad that some focus so intently on those spreadsheet days of yore and conventions that existed often because of hardware limitations, and not on what matters most, and what makes these games wholly unique.

I'm enjoying gaming in the way I used to when I was a kid; something that only happens when a new Elder Scrolls game comes out. So I think Bethesda did all right.

im lovin it. of course its not perfect but what game is

I think Skyrim did an excellent job of addressing many of the flaws in Morrowind and Oblivion, but then again, I feel they went a little too far ( just my opinion). A case in point. In Morrowind if I had zero axe skill, it was a given that I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. It didn't take a spreadsheet to figure that out, or to figure out that if I had 25 out of a possible 100 in axe skill that I still had a 75% chance of missing. Same for spells. If I wanted to be a bad ass, I had to go out, skill-up and earn it.


In Skyrim I've yet to ever miss with a weapon, even with zero skill. With zero Destruction skill, I'm still assured my fireball spell will never fail. Zero skill = 100% effective. That isn't (IMHO) "streamlined", that's giving it to you on a silver platter. I won't go so far as to say Skyrim is essentially "Halo with magic" , but I do fear they are moving in that direction.


I'm loving Syrim and will accept it for the great game that it is, but I do miss a sense of "earning" things in this game.

Weapon attacks can be blocked, and are really only as effective as the perks you spend on them and how much stamina you have. If you fight even an average bandit or solider early on without a developed weapon perk tree, you're going to get massacred if there's more than one of them, whether you're connecting or not. Same goes for magic. If your spells are ineffective because you didn't invest in the corresponding perk (skill), or you run out of magicka too quickly because you didn't dump more points into boosting them, you're going to get slaughtered. Just because you connect more regularly doesn't mean you're godlike right out of the gate. It just means they eliminated the annoyance of standing right in front of something and swinging like a crazy person while not making contact, which realistically (yeah, I know, it's a fantasy game) doesn't make a lot of sense. You still have to "skill-up and earn it" if you want to be powerful.

Skyrim isn't disappointing me in any major way except for the terrible character aesthetics (as is always the case with Beth, but I keep hoping they will hire some East Asian artists and include their art as selections in the character creation system).

I go back to the original AD&D, the first Wizardry, the original release of Pool of Radiance as the first title of SSI's "Gold Box" line, etc.

I still feel that the first Phantasy Star and Ys I&II are my landmarks for RPGs, including action-RPGs, at least as far as memorable characters who I care about.

I promote TES heavily because I anolyze the games based on important elements such as social issues, politics, war, intrigue, and others.

For those who asked for other modern excellent RPGs, I can offer some titles that I also promote heavily based on various elements. Of course, it also depends on what character you like to play and can empathize with. I would suggest Star Ocean: The Last Hope and Tales of Vesperia for the current gen and because they deal with issues such as accepting diversity, communications, and the importance of adopting humility rather than pride when considering how life evolves. I would also say that Xenosaga has perhaps the most complex story, characters and settings of any RPG in the past decade or so, particularly with respect to raising existentiial issues, where we are heading with technology, how we view other elements in our shared existence, and respect for all elements. Fallout 3 and Mass Effect also deserve mention in this regard, and Dragon Age: Origins has good writing that addresses these issues despite having relatively simple technical and gameplay elements.

Skyrim has some issues, of course, and some of them have not even been stated here, at least not that I've seen. For example, why the heck can't we see what enchantments we've learned without accessing the Arcane Enchanter? Obviously we need to do this when deciding what items to buy (or keep) for disenchanting and learning a new enchantment, but we can't simply see a list in the Magic panel. The issue of soul gems losing the captured soul is huge and game breaking for many characters, so hopefully it will be one of the things fixed in the next patch. There are smaller issues such as being addressed as a Nord even though you are a Breton (literally being called a Nord despite being a Breton). Overall, though, Beth has another huge hit on their hands and I'm sure we'll see support for it from both Beth and the community for the next 5-10 years (or more).

GRRR!!! I hate eating humble pie. I have to admit, you do make sense. I'm old(ish) and stuck in my ways. Seeing things in a different light is never my primary goal. I hope you're happy. :foodndrink:

My copy is unplayable.

Dumb thread.

Please leave that anime stuff where it belongs and let this Western RPG stay Western. That's my opinion on it.

No offense intended of course. :thumbsup:

There never were spreadsheets in any ES, ever. lol at hyperbole. Only a complete simpleton wouldn't be able to understand games as easy as ES games are.

I'm tired of kids hating on a great game

Cheers

I will totally concede that the new leveling/perk system initially seems like a massive departure from the previous setup, but underneath all the gloss and sheen, it's really not that different! It's just a little less obtuse and artificially limiting now. If you were fighting a bear (as I'm sure you often do), and had a big 'ol axe in your hand, chances are you're probably going to make some kind of contact when you take a swing. It's effectiveness, however, would depend entirely on your familiarity with using it. You're still leveling skills by using them and you're getting stronger all the time, it's just a little more subtle and logical now. Hitting/casting more consistently (the old way) vs. hitting/casting more effectively (the new way), I suppose.

Honestly, I was expecting an argument just for argument's sake, so cheers for having an open mind. :foodndrink:

Because Witcher had more stats?

No, that can't be right...


So what's different then?

A major influx of casuals? Whats your point, and why are you even quoting me?

You're on a public forum. Speaking publicly. That may happen from time to time, especially with the "token arrogant guy on a message board with unwarranted elitism" thing you're trying to pull off there. Which I've never seen before on the internet. Ever.

Again with the spreadsheets comments? I'm sorry but if you think managing a handful of numbers which don't even actually require any mathematical skills on your part is complex then you are an idiot.

HA!

I like. I also agree.

Most overused words/phrases in today's gaming society; Dumbed down, Casualised, Consolised, Underrated, Overrated, Imbalance, hardcoe, "WURE DEY PUT MY OLD GAME MECHANICS?".

What's your point?

If your argument is that TES was always simple, how is Skyrim so different?

Sounds like you. Come back when you actually have a point. I'll take it you don't even know what the word elitism means. No, seriously, what have I said that was so arrogant or elitist? That theres more casuals playing ES than ever before ( something I don't even give an opinion on whether I'm for or against, mind you)? Thats a fact that even Beth acknowledges and was even their admitted marketing strategy. LOL at people that don't like the truth.

My point is clear, that you didnt need a spreadsheet in any ES. Again, if you didnt even know my point, why did you quote me? Because you have to defend anything, even if it has nothing to do with you, or even 'criticising' Bethesda?

thanks for proving that your full of [censored] and dont know what your talking about

That's my line.

Obviously, I'm just a mindless defender, being dumbed down by idiotic console games, and I'll never fully appretiate the real value of a true RPG, Morrowind.

You can complain while still enjoying the game.

i love skyrim, great game, knocks the socks off of oblivion. but...

you people decided that skyrim was game of the year before you even played it. you lack the ability to accept any criticism about a game whose series is known for excessive bugs, inhuman NPCs, and major balance issues (the proliferation of online multiplayer has not suddenly given single player an excuse to not present a fair challenge). you also refuse to believe that complexity, in any form, warranted or otherwise, requires more thinking than something simpler.

simplified does not always mean dumber; that does not mean it NEVER means dumber. skills have been removed and consolidated not because they were too complex, but for... no real reason at all. to make things go by faster i suppose, to give you less control, and thus less to worry about. what exactly did removing spellcrafting accomplish? was this completely optional system really so complicated? you pick an effect, slide left to right to adjust the cost/ power ratio. THATS IT. sliding left and right! there is no calculus formula you have to solve in your head to figure this out: the more you put it one way, the stronger it is, but the less you can use it.

most of what was removed was unnecessary padding, that is true. but guess what? this entire series is unnecessary padding. do you really play these games for the story? for the engrossing plotlines and deep characters? no, you play TES to explore, to dungeon crawl, to make your OWN story, to find characters with that one and only hilariously memorable character trait, to kill a bunch of townsfolk for no reason and to seek out such memorable rarities as a crab fighting a demonic crocodile. the strength of the TES series is always in its side content; everything you DONT have to do; so why remove any aspect of what you dont have to do? to make room for the marriage system? im not saying athletics and acrobatics were critical skills that added a whole different layer of depth to the game, but what did we gain from removing them? its not like i cant still just jump up an 80 degree incline to get wherever i want. we have a sprint function; it would seem perfect for athletics to reduce the cost of sprinting or something; its not much, but you lose nothing by having that option for people to RP someone trained to physical perfection... ive seen more specific characters, believe me.

this was never a complex series. i highly doubt even the 12 year-olds among us would struggle to comprehend morrowind if they tried. we played these games as kids ourselves. there is little to streamline, only things to simplify for its own sake. the freedom given to you by the TES series can be very daunting, and beth's attempts to make it more approachable unsurprisingly can remove what made it such a content-filled wonderland to begin with.

but that doesnt matter... as ive said, you people arent shaping your opinions based on what you see, your shaping what you see based on you opinions and finding any and every excuse to blame someone other than beth for its problems, presenting hackneyed workarounds to somehow make it the player's fault. it is not my job to fix the game; it is beth's.

great game. plenty of problems, but it says so much more that despite MASSIVE and amateurish flaws(and my TV cutting off the sides of the screen obscuring everything that pops up in the corners), there is still plenty of fun to be had.

im a console gamer by the way :spotted owl: .

The hate on Skyrim is uncalled for.

Simplified? If anything, I find that everything is more dynamic. Alchemy and the new smithing system is great, the dreadful attribute function is gone, and a new sense of strategy is placed on the the perk system. Not to mention the class system is gone. That's probably for me the biggest improvement in the character creation. Why? Because class creation punishes people for not picking what they want. I mean, I thought I was going to be a full combat tank but that didn't work out, so I switched to destruction and restoration.

Oh, it doesn't have all the features! Well...it does. Radiant story is more subtle than I thought it would be but it's there. Radiant AI is also there, it's just so seamlessly added that you don't notice it very much, which is great.

Too easy? There's a little thing called the difficulty switch. Please put it on a higher position than set. If it is still easy, please cease to use the console commands or please place restrictions on your character such as only using fists or no shield/magic.

By the way, complexity doesn't make a game. Look at Grand Theft Auto 4. Is it complex? No. It's just as simple as take cover, shoot, move up, repeat. But wouldn't you agree it's a great sandbox game? Then you get games that try to act fancy with the class system and attribute system and it just fails miserably. It just adds to the headache of making a character. Character creation should be nice, smooth, and fun. Not a tedious experience with mathematical calculations.