Becoming Hortator was a pretty bloody business. You had to kill Venim, no way around it. You probably had to kill at least a few Hlaalu, unless you had the Camonna Tong leader (a slaver and a thug) in your pocket, which I believe necessitated blackmailing him. As I recall, you could end up murdering almost every single one of the Telvanni, but even if you got all of their support, you'd still have to kill the head Telvanni guy because he would never, ever actually give you the support you needed, just put you off forever.

Nerevarine wasn't too clean either. At least one quest required you to purchase a slave to be an Ashkhan's bride (she was happy about it, but that doesn't change the fact that's what you were doing). Another required you to kill off pretty much the entire leadership of an Ashlander tribe so the timid, no-confidence son of the former Ashkhan could take over.

There was a way around all of this, of course...if you murdered Vivec and stole his ancient relic. So. Yeah.

Yeah the more I try to remember the more I see morrowind as darker place. I can’t recall many factions where I didn’t have to kill off the competition to get to the top. Oblivion on the other hand was so “nice” most of the Daedra quests were either benign or funny and the thieves guild was a robin hood guild.

Juvenile nature? Sorry no, you're being petty at this point. Juvenile is expecting your game to be about being the hero that slays dat gosh darn evil dragon. This isn't Don Quixote in the snow, and Bethesda has always been like this.

I am truly frustrated by this influx of people that were introduced to the game with Oblivion that expect the series to pander to them, when Oblivion was a damn trainwreck of a game, salvaged by very strong gameplay and a faint connection to previous Elder Scrolls titles.

OP, are you seriously complaining that Skyrim is not generic enough with the whole good and evil stuff?
So the critically acclaimed Witcher series is also considered a basemant dwelling emo kid game according to your ridiculous parameters? :unsure2:

Not to mention there actually are boatload of quests involving the do-gooder stuff.

As a person who does believe in objective good & evil from the viewpoint of intention ethics and pretty much a goody two-shoes who can't play dark side in KOTOR without feeling some measure of guilt, I have very few problems with Skyrim at all!
Only the Cidna Mine quest bothered me a bit as at the time I thought it forced me to kill a man who had done me no wrong. Turns out later on, I could have avoided that. Other than that... I think it's really quite balanced out!

The way I see it:

Dark brotherhood = evil, but with some redeeming qualities (not Mwoohahhaaa evil)
Thieves guild = less evil, but still pretty reprehensible
Companions = not evil, might be good, but with a darker side
College = good, I don't see why you would even call them neutral as they really are combating evil
Main quest = definitely good (and this is the MAIN quest!), though it does have a potential for a darker side too
Civil War = whether this is good, evil or neutral is purely a matter of your character's intentions and beliefs (again, from my viewpoint of intention ethics)

And then you have lots of side quests and radiant quests, most of which are either good or neutral, although there are some evil ones too.

My character is a good guy and I have no problem with the game. I think people are mostly upset because you can't remove quests you don't want to do from your journal and because the game doesn't tell you when you're being good or bad or in any way rewards you for it. The journal thing is a bit annoying but the latter doesn't bother me at all. In real life, you do the right thing because it's the right thing, not because it's more materially rewarding, right?
As I said before, yes, Skyrim is a dark place, but it's not an irredeemable cesspool of negativity. It's a majestic land where a proud people live. They are fallible and corruptable but still they deserve something better. I think the game does a good job of accommodating all kinds of roleplaying when it comes to morality.

I think you have a good point here. In general I agree with the OP; I've completed the main quest and the civil war quest along with a bunch of mini-quest lines (on two separate characters), and I'm now at the point where my quest journal is filled with a bunch of quests that not only do I have no interest in pursuing, they downright repulse me.



The fact I have to have these repulsive quests in my face every time I look in my journal for things to do, exacerbates the feeling of "Sheesh, all I have left to do is evil."


I suppose I am facing that inevitable point we all dread in a game, when we've done all the subjectively interesting stuff there is to do in a game and it's time to put it to rest, at least until an expansion pack comes out.

What have you done? You are about to get flamed so bad...

P.S. You do know they aren't actual werewolves, merely single-type shapeshifters.

The way i see it, the good and evil in Skyrim is more realistic then in regular RPG′s. Sometimes you have to look outside the box to find the meaning to some of the quests ect. In reality, good or bad is in gray shades rather then black and white. To truly know whats good or bad in this game so far is just like, in reality, based on how much effort you put in finding the truth and facts behind the dilemma. All the quests, NPCs and areas are filled with maps and lore that you can investigate to get a greater picture. In real life, we read in the papers that a man murdered a stranger in cold blood. The self righteous start to point fingers and such, but thru proper investigation it wasnt realy a murder, he was innocent, or it was an accident and so forth. The readers that do not take the time to look things up assume that he is guilty, and thus evil. Ive found that in Skyrim alot of things work the same way. Look things up, get a clear picture and then decide who is evil and not.

Take the Companions, as an example. At first glance, a religious fanatic, herald of good walk in, even tho the Companions are honorable they gasp when they find out they are werewolves and jump to the conclusion that they are evil. Personally, i think religious fanatic people are more evil then most, simply because they are brainwashed with religious views and what not and make assumptions based on information that they havent realy verified looked at properly, just assume its right cause "they" belive in it. Perhaps the information itself is from a preaching [censored] or a book made from people that arent even alive anymore. (Not long ago Rock was the devils music)

Even we assume that the werewolves are "evil" based on lore from stories outside the Skyrim universe. Look at the Silver Hand, the holy warriors with their silver blades, sworn enemies to the werewolves. They torture and skin people just because they have the "curse". If a good person, can turn into a beast, and remain in control. Isnt the beast itself good due to the nature of the person?

I could go on about this for a very long time, every quest and such so far has shown such depth as the one i discussed here.
Personally i find it refreshing to play a game with more depth then the usual blond male with a superhero chin kill [censored] that perhaps isnt evil at all, just because its black, hunchbacked and ugly with sharp teeth we assume its bad. Genocide in the name of holy light while cool music plays in the background. =)

In Skyrim, the "good guys" turn out not to be as good as we thought, just like when a catholic priest get caught IRL showing a unhealthy passion for young boys.

I didn't buy Skyrim to be an Ethics simulation. ALL the TES games in the past have had heroic and villain paths in the past. This one seems to just be a dark preachy "no-win" situation with nothing really heroic. My wife and her friend basically summed it up last night. "It's clear that the lead designer9s) went through a bad divorce or received some seriously bad medical advice and used Skyrim as their punching bag." There is simply no heroic story line. Even the main line is "your heroes are all flawed." advlts deal with that in real life daily. We don't need "Twilight werewolves" as someone posted earlier in the thread.

It′s hard to know what the ideas are behind a complex game such as Skyrim. Could have been a bad divorce, bad medical advice ect, it could also be a way to evolve the game into a different direction. Lets face it, they copy pasted Oblivion/fallout into a new product with some slight graphical upgrades and new scripted NPC′s. Maybe the goal was, realism with a touch of fantasy. Whatever path you choose as a creator it will bring dismay with some people. I have played TES games, i expected this to be like the other ones when it comes to, good vs evil per say. I dont want realism and so forth. If you only buy TES games, you will naturally have some expectations. Personally if i was behind the production, and followed the easier choices in the classic good/evil questlines i would end up making a "Fable meets CS" mod with a pre used game engine, not very exiting from a designers perspective. As a creator one might want to take it somewhere else, not just cause of personal problems but rather as evolving the product?

Lets face it, there are hundreds of RPGs out there that take the easy way out in the plot and story to give you proper antagonists with an all evil agenda.

Dont get me wrong, i respect your personal views and critisism, however id like to defend the statements with my own opinions as they vary from yours. =)

Ive found some intresting solutions to some quests on my later playthroughs, like when you get to choose to kill the tree or save it, theres a 3rd option (good) that i missed the first times. Or when i decided to kill Astrid in the shack and rescued the people bound for execution. There might be more good solutions ingame for us to find, considering the atmosphere the actions feel more "good" then usual in RPG′s, atleast for me. =)

I actually felt evil when in that torture room... so I killed them to put them out of their misery

I really don't see what's "un-heroic" about the game. I just don't see it. I'm a dragonslaying, world-saving Dovahkiin, how is that not heroic?
I don't see how it is all bleak and black either. There are countless chances to help people just out of the kindness of your heart. Okay, sometimes it doesn't end well but most often it does... This is not The Witcher or anything... I just don't see what's so terribly negative about it.
Tolkien had some pretty dark material as well, but in the end there is clearly hope to be found in his books. I kind of experience Skyrim similarly.

I agree that the skyrim is full of negative energy
After almost 100 hr gameplay I don't feel something or quests are particularly "good"
most quest consider is good is just neutral, for example help fetching, collecting, talking, killing monsters and investigating.
especially these work show nothing in affecting the NPC, the environment or activating other quest.
Without enough evidences, I don't think I am doing something good, bad or "business is just business".

Most Guilds are either corrupted, evil or sad.

It's not that there aren't noble tasks to do or people to help, it's that there is a lack of choices for the primary quest lines. I always play noble characters or good characters and I have a hard time doing anything in this game. I've in the middle of the main quest and that is fine, but I've just about given up on the Stormcloak rebellion for in-game ethical reasons. I've only finished the Companions quest line, but didn't kill anyone as a Werewolf, and instead I am "redeeming" werewolves. I would like to wipe out the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves Guild, but don't see any quest lines to do that.

I got svckered into the Molag Bal quest, because I thought I was helping someone, okay fine, but then at least give me "good" options. Like maybe the chance to "cleanse" the abandoned house or something. I gave up on it, I'm not going to help out some evil deity.

Hey look, we all have our own play styles, that's fine. But I expected Skyrim to be a sandbox style game, where I could follow numerous quest lines as a good character. My expectations weren't unrealistic, I don't think, as I was able to play my style in both Morrowind and Oblivion.

I don't mean to be hostile but if someone brutally murdered a person you love(kodlak?) would you not desecrate their body? I would. The only time I ate someone is when we stormed the silver hand headquarters.

The Golden Age of the Empire is over. Times are darker; civil war looms and destructive beasts form old legends just set your chicken coop on fire. Even the land itself is grim, cold and merciless.

But things are darkest before the dawn. A dark age always precedes one of enlightenment.

Skyrim has a darker tone, yes. It suits the land and the times it's set in. But it also sets the stage for TES 6. Who knows what wonders that may hold?


I think wiping out the DB is possible.

You make excuses with the shield of the modern social filter: "no one is to blame if there are circumstances."

The act you describe is revenge and thus automatically evil. Evil often "feels" right as it is your brain stem talking. It does not make it morally right or acceptable.

the elder scrolls that i know has always been fairly dark. Morrowind has you serving a god out for petty revenge, oblivion ended with the empire on the brink of collapse, Also pure good vs pure evil is boring, give me the exciting shades of grey

pure good doen't really work, every hero has had to get there hands dirty

I wouldn't really consider the Thieves Guild evil. Unlawful, yes. Evil, no.

You are right on both counts. However there was usually a general high road or a general low road to take in both games. The general high road seems to be missing. Its almost like they removed it for DLC early on. Solitude guard, Talos temple revival, Secret missions for the temple of the 8 with a general theme would all have balanced out the "Kill and give up your soul/steal and give up you soul/beat up working mothers (my first companion quest) and almost give up your soul.

The sandbox is very shallow at the good end. Heck the TG RIVALS the main quest in number of steps.

I see what you are getting at but I still think that this game is a more realistic depictions of things. If I wanted some cheesy fairy tale style concept where you are some flawless hero oozing goodness out of his pores I would go play fable. TES was always about living another life and the times Skyrim is set in are dark than any of the previous games.

Side note to your social filter comment: You are using your own social filter for that, one based seemingly off the premise of laws, in that one size fits all. You argue that revenge is morally wrong and while I will say it most likely isnt good, you must take context into account. Without it you simply are making moral judgement calls without the facts. Realistically speaking the world is not always right and wrong, sometimes it is wrong and more wrong. Its called taking the lesser of two evils.

And technically speaking the things you refer to like secretly doing quests for Talos and whatnot is also bad. Your actions further risk destabilizing things in a region that is already fragile with an enemy that is a serious threat. Yet you would do it because it is "good"?

You have to hand over your soul to a Daedra. How is that not evil? There is no such thing as a victim free crime. If you play a thief well, and I do actually, you OWN that fact. Framing a man is evil. Forcing protection money is evil. Stealing is evil. All these things break the social contract and foster anomalies in the fabric of society that hurt everyone.

Stealing isnt evil, forcing protection money isnt evil, framing a man isnt evil. Wrong yes, evil no. there is a difference

Seems pretty accurate to real life, a world full of hideous acts carried out on a daily basis.

You must be born around.... going to guess 90-91? Your views are likely to change when you hit 30 and you are affected by theft. :wink_smile:

Anything that disrupts the social fabric, NOT the status quo, is inherently evil. Anarchy and Totalitarianism are two sides of the same coin. Both are evil and in the end a transitional state.