I liked that they had their own storylines, personally. It felt better than just doing a bunch of quests. I just hated how when the stories ended there was nothing left to do with or for the guild except a few things Bethesda threw in to make you feel like there was something left to do when there really wasn't.

It is not supposed to be a mirror of real life (and whether or not it is the equivalent of the Dark Ages is questionable)

Could Bethesda include randomly-generated quests that never end in amount with hand-crafted quests related to a storyline in the same game? I always pictured skill requirements and reputation that comes from successfully completing quests as determining one's rank, and at a certain rank, one of the heads of a specific guild would let you in on some bigger problems, with randomly-generated quests still being an option after that point.

I don't think that your rank should be based just on the skill numbers (since I couldn't just look at you and know you have a mysticism skill of 50), but rather the quests that you are sent on for the guild should require you to have around a certain skill level (like a blade skill of 50), but if you are just a very good player you could manage to do it with a skill of 45. And let's face it, while your numbers are (or at least should be) important, how you use them is just as important and is what actually shows. That way, you don't just get a blade skill of 50, and someone looks at you and goes "Oh you have 50 blade skill so u now higher rand HAAA."

I agree with that. Promotion should be based on results more than unmeasurable numbers. I'd say to get in the guild at all you'd need decent skills they desire, but past the entry, promotion would be based on dedication and time serving. Then make the quests harder for people without the skills required by the organization. Have a quest in the Mages Guild where you have to cast the spell Banish Daedra, straight up. No getting around that one, you can either do it or not.

Though this system wouldn't work if there were spell scrolls. Remove the spell scrolls from the game.

And bring back rank requirements, for real.

I agree with the scrolls. Get rid of them. Anything that you could really need (restore strength, fatigue, health) can come in potion form. It would then open up the possibility of receiving magic tomes for spells that could not be learned by non-magic people, not just because the book for some reason requires some specific number destruction skill, but rather because you could not even hope to earn it without the skill.

Overall, I was pretty disappointed with the FG and MG quests in OB. They were really just "do it to say you did it" type questlines. You didn't really get anything out of them, save money, which seems really stupid. Sure, you gained access to a spell vendor with different spells, but what about the libraries in the arcane university? It should have been a real achievement to gain access to it, and it should have been because you were enabled to learn an abundance of new (not necessarily REALLY powerful) spells. And as you continued to gain rank, you should have become privvy to much higher level spells, capable of much greater effects than you could have as a lowly member. You could have done similar things with the fighter's guild, giving the player more powerful moves and maybe even...hold on now...COMBOS! Or the ability to disarm an opponent through sheer blade skill! There were so many possibilities, and they really fell short in my opinion.

Edit: some more speling.

Well, a scroll is just an enchanted piece of paper, and anything can be enchanted.

The trick for a successful guild build is to have a compelling story, but to not have the player really notice it until the end (similar to the Thieves and Fighters Guilds in MW).

You need:
1. Filler quests so that the player does not feel important.
2. Story quests so that the player does feel important.
3. Inter-faction relationships so that the player is or can be excluded from some guilds if they choose to join others.
4. Requirements so that the player cannot advance too quickly without specializing in what the guild does.
5. Rank limitations so that the player cannot be the leader of every guild, or even more than 1 or 2 (how many full time jobs do you have?)

Then what is the writing on the paper?

I know the Telvanni have done research on how to make really cheap and easy to produce summon scrolls..you draw a picture of what you want to summon. It's true! There's a Telvanni quest that explains it.

The trick for a successful guild build is to have a compelling story, but to not have the player really notice it until the end (similar to the Thieves and Fighters Guilds in MW).

You need:
1. Filler quests so that the player does not feel important.
2. Story quests so that the player does feel important.
3. Inter-faction relationships so that the player is or can be excluded from some guilds if they choose to join others.
4. Requirements so that the player cannot advance too quickly without specializing in what the guild does.
5. Rank limitations so that the player cannot be the leader of every guild, or even more than 1 or 2 (how many full time jobs do you have?)

The trick for a successful guild build is to have a compelling story, but to not have the player really notice it until the end (similar to the Thieves and Fighters Guilds in MW).

You need:
1. Filler quests so that the player does not feel important.
2. Story quests so that the player does feel important.
3. Inter-faction relationships so that the player is or can be excluded from some guilds if they choose to join others.
4. Requirements so that the player cannot advance too quickly without specializing in what the guild does.
5. Rank limitations so that the player cannot be the leader of every guild, or even more than 1 or 2 (how many full time jobs do you have?)

The trick for a successful guild build is to have a compelling story, but to not have the player really notice it until the end (similar to the Thieves and Fighters Guilds in MW).

You need:
1. Filler quests so that the player does not feel important.
2. Story quests so that the player does feel important.
3. Inter-faction relationships so that the player is or can be excluded from some guilds if they choose to join others.
4. Requirements so that the player cannot advance too quickly without specializing in what the guild does.
5. Rank limitations so that the player cannot be the leader of every guild, or even more than 1 or 2 (how many full time jobs do you have?)

I liked the storylines too but I think the overall guilds systems could use a lot of improvement. My only complains with the quest lines themselves was that there was often just one way to complete them, and there was no moral ambiguity to them. But they put the side quests to shame for the most part.

I do think that having just those quests to determine promotions and advancement is a bad system though, but that's not a complaint about the quests themselves, but rather the guild system as a whole. I had so much fun doing the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quest lines, but it took me like 3 days of moderate play for each and all of a sudden I'm outranking Armond Christophe and Fathis Ules and every other surviving member of both guilds. And I'm just a level 6 nobody... I hate that.

The ideal system for me involves a nice intricate quest line like the ones in Oblivion, but you cannot advance in that quest line without meeting other requirements first, and those requirements are based on the following:

1. Completing randomly generated tasks, and/or simple set tasks, from guild members (e.g. clear this cave, return this item, collect these many things, steal this many of these, find this missing person, etc.). As you ascend in rank, you should have to do more of these to reach the next level, and they should be a bit more challenging.
2. Meeting skill requirements. Seriously, the Arch Mage should be like a Master in at least one Magic skill and Expert in at least 2 others. The Grey Fox should be a Master in at least one Stealth skill and Expert in at least 2 others. etc. This prevents players from rushing through the guild lines, and it also ensures that only the truly dedicated and worthy reach the highest ranks.
3. Reputation/disposition. Guilds should have a degree of politics; you should have to get the right people to like you in order to advance, especially at the higher levels. And this should require more than just a few turns of the personality wheel or whatever variant thereof is in TESV; you should have to to some personal favor(s) and/or errand(s) for your superiors, if you want to get that promotion faster.


So by the time you reach the highest ranks, you will have:
- Completed a 10-15 hour unique quest line
- Completed 30+ randomly generated tasks and/or simple set tasks
- Become a high level in most/all of the skills related to that faction (if applicable)
- Buttered up most/all of the high ranking members of the faction in order to gain their support

And it would be spaced out something like this:
Rank 1: Fresh Meat
- Complete 2 tasks to unlock first quest
- Complete first quest, receive promotion

Rank 2: Rookie
- Complete 3 tasks and be an Apprentice in one relevant skill to unlock second quest
- Complete second quest, receive promotion

Rank 3: Beginner
- Complete 4 tasks, be an Apprentice in 2 relevant skills
- Complete third quest but no promotion
- Do a personal errand for a faction leader to receive promotion and unlock the fourth quest

etc.

The nice thing about this, besides the fact that it takes a lot more time and effort and dedication to reach the elite ranks, is that even when/if you become guildmaster, you can still carry out randomly generated tasks for money/disposition bonuses. And they should also make it so that guildmasters have a more active role in things, like assessing talent, assigning missions/tasks, meeting with clients, etc.

I agree with everything you just said.

I found it really weird that my Nord only has 84 Magicka and is the arch-mage.

It's because they're too scared to upset the barbarian that slew the "legendary Mannimarco".

You are just one of the thousand members of the guilds doing the everyday task, it takes you a lot of time to become head of the guild, and you don't feel as someone important until you are nearing the end of the questline.