In Oblivion I kind of felt that the guilds had too much of a story line. I don't think that Daggerfall had them and I don't think Morrowind had them (Guild Story lines). In my opinion these kind of made the guilds seem cheesy.

I also dislike the fact that anything you did in one guild wouldn't effect another, so you can be the leader of all the guilds.

Does anyone else feel this way and hope it's different in the next installment?

I agree with everything you just said. Period.

MW did have guild story-lines, but the guilds were not kick the puppy evil or goodie goodie two shoes like they were in Oblivion, and many of the guilds and factions acted like what you would expect from such an organization. An example would be for the Mages Guild, you were often sent to study ruins, gather mushrooms, find Mage Guild members who were delinquent on their dues, and suppress all forms of magical teaching outside the guild.

A lot of the guilds and factions had some branches, or were a lot more gray instead of the good vs. evil we got from OB, psychotic killers who kick puppies, or Robin Hoods (though MW's Thieve's Guild did have a self contained branch where one would be like Robin Hood, away from the TG's main quest)

Indeed, it bothered me as well.

While I don't mind to sometime have quests related to a storyline in a guild, it then feels like you are the only one capable of saving the guild's butt when it's in trouble. It makes you feel like you are the only mage of the Arcane University capable of helping against the Necromancers.
But if, like in Morrowind, Oblivion's guilds had both "everyday" tasks and "storyline related" tasks, it would have been better. Oblivion has those everyday tasks, but they're only at the beginning.

For me, it makes it hard to roleplay an average mage/fighter/thief of a guild because I know I'll always be the "chosen" for saving the guild's butt and become head of it.

I prefer Morrowind''s system, which includes part of Daggerfall's system. You are just one of the thousand members of the guilds doing the everyday task, it takes you a lot of time to become head of the guild, and you don't feel as someone important until you are nearing the end of the questline.

Pretty much what Hellmouth said.

I liked that they had their own storylines, personally. It felt better than just doing a bunch of quests. I just hated how when the stories ended there was nothing left to do with or for the guild except a few things Bethesda threw in to make you feel like there was something left to do when there really wasn't.

I liked the storylines too but I think the overall guilds systems could use a lot of improvement. My only complains with the quest lines themselves was that there was often just one way to complete them, and there was no moral ambiguity to them. But they put the side quests to shame for the most part.

I do think that having just those quests to determine promotions and advancement is a bad system though, but that's not a complaint about the quests themselves, but rather the guild system as a whole. I had so much fun doing the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quest lines, but it took me like 3 days of moderate play for each and all of a sudden I'm outranking Armond Christophe and Fathis Ules and every other surviving member of both guilds. And I'm just a level 6 nobody... I hate that.

The ideal system for me involves a nice intricate quest line like the ones in Oblivion, but you cannot advance in that quest line without meeting other requirements first, and those requirements are based on the following:

1. Completing randomly generated tasks, and/or simple set tasks, from guild members (e.g. clear this cave, return this item, collect these many things, steal this many of these, find this missing person, etc.). As you ascend in rank, you should have to do more of these to reach the next level, and they should be a bit more challenging.
2. Meeting skill requirements. Seriously, the Arch Mage should be like a Master in at least one Magic skill and Expert in at least 2 others. The Grey Fox should be a Master in at least one Stealth skill and Expert in at least 2 others. etc. This prevents players from rushing through the guild lines, and it also ensures that only the truly dedicated and worthy reach the highest ranks.
3. Reputation/disposition. Guilds should have a degree of politics; you should have to get the right people to like you in order to advance, especially at the higher levels. And this should require more than just a few turns of the personality wheel or whatever variant thereof is in TESV; you should have to to some personal favor(s) and/or errand(s) for your superiors, if you want to get that promotion faster.


So by the time you reach the highest ranks, you will have:
- Completed a 10-15 hour unique quest line
- Completed 30+ randomly generated tasks and/or simple set tasks
- Become a high level in most/all of the skills related to that faction (if applicable)
- Buttered up most/all of the high ranking members of the faction in order to gain their support

And it would be spaced out something like this:
Rank 1: Fresh Meat
- Complete 2 tasks to unlock first quest
- Complete first quest, receive promotion

Rank 2: Rookie
- Complete 3 tasks and be an Apprentice in one relevant skill to unlock second quest
- Complete second quest, receive promotion

Rank 3: Beginner
- Complete 4 tasks, be an Apprentice in 2 relevant skills
- Complete third quest but no promotion
- Do a personal errand for a faction leader to receive promotion and unlock the fourth quest

etc.

The nice thing about this, besides the fact that it takes a lot more time and effort and dedication to reach the elite ranks, is that even when/if you become guildmaster, you can still carry out randomly generated tasks for money/disposition bonuses. And they should also make it so that guildmasters have a more active role in things, like assessing talent, assigning missions/tasks, meeting with clients, etc.

Fo sho.

And bring back rank requirements, for real.

I also didn't mind the storylines for the guilds, however I think there should be a bit more of "leg work," if you will, before you are given big tasks. It was one thing that I thought OB did well with the Thieve's Guild, where you had to fence a certain amount of stuff to "prove" that you are a good enough thief to take on the next task. There should be more "prove you can take the next big task" types of things that aren't really storyline related, so it doesn't feel so linear.

I was bothered more by the fact that I was even capable of becoming the head of every guild. I played an archer, and I would think that, with a 10 destruction skill, I would not even be considered by the Mage's Guild to be the head honcho. I [i]should[/] have been weeded out by the "prove you can do it" tasks, because they should have been actually magic-related. Basically, I would like to see more guilds in the next game, and for those guilds to be much more skill-oriented in nature. If I become the head of a guild, I should be the epitome of what the guild stands for.

I like those ideas of randomly generated quests, like in Daggerfall. Seems like a good way to do it.

I do think there should be a guild storyline for each guild, as you advance in ranks; however, it shouldn't be quite so prominent as the Mages Guild, Fighters Guild, and Dark Brotherhood ones were in Oblivion; Thieves Guild is different, and in some ways much more far-reaching than the other three but in other ways, insignificant; all told, I like it how it is other than one small facet.

One other thing I dislike about all the guild questlines:

Yeah in threads like this in the past, the idea of having randomly-generated jobs a la Daggerfall with a single plotline that can advance you to the head of the guild, like in Oblivion, that gradually unfolds as you gain ranks. This would probably be pretty simple to implement, and even just with that it would be an improvement on any TES game to date.

If they wanted to expand on it further, that would be great too. For example, it'd be cool to have like a reputation with each quest-giver that improves with each random job you do for them. That way, when you're higher up in the guild, different branches in the main quest may become available as the different sergeants will have formulated different opinions of you (one guy who you've worked for a lot knows you're dependable and trustworthy, another guy doesn't know you but trusts the first guy's judgment, a third guy thinks you're in cahoots with the first guy and doesn't trust you at all, etc etc).

I completely agree. It all felt so generic and cliché in most of Oblivion's guild questlines. What I would like to see of an improvement on Morrowind, though, is to have all of these guilds, but to be more fleshed out. The main guilds (FG, TG, Great houses, etc.), where very involved and had a great storyline, but, for example, both Temple questlines where very unsatisfying towards the end. I never really felt as though I made a big difference.

May just be me, though. :shrug:

One thing I liked the most about Morrowind was how guilds served different roles. Guilds in Morrowind actually served a political purpose. There were 3 different houses that each catered to different playstyles. Magic users go to Telvanni, Warriors and fighters to Redoran, and sneaky types go to Hlaalu. The game also limited you to one house because they aren't just guilds, they are political entities. Join one, you are very unloved by the others because you act against them. Aside from those, there are 3 Imperial guilds, Mage, Fighter, and Thief, which you could feel free to join any combination of. You're not really anyone important, just a representative of Imperial alternatives to basic house functions. Following this, I can't remember much of the other factions. It has been so long since I've played. I do remember, however, that the Legion and Temple were also factions. Both of them are clearly political, and I can't remember if joining one excluded you from another, but it's just great for roleplaying purposes. That is one thing I didn't like about the way guilds worked in Oblivion.

The major excuse in Oblivion is that you should be free to join any guild because you should be free to roleplay any character you want. I can understand having a battlemage who is a proud member of the guild of mages, but isn't against taking up an occasional contract at the Fighter's guild for some extra income. I can understand a member of the Fighter's guild who's not earning as much as he'd like, and without his guild knowing, signing up as a thief to earn more through less legitimate ways. What I don't understand is why the Mage's guild would allow a high up member of the Fighter's guild become Archmage. Why the game would allow you to join guilds with opposing moralities (Dark Brotherhood kills, Thieve's guild forbids it).

If it were me who designed all of it, I would create a system that prevents you from joining certain guilds when you join others. I'll list off a few scenarios.

If you are a member of the Dark Brotherhood and seek to join the Guild of Thieves, the guild recruiter will tell you "We are an underground organization. We survive on information. Do you think we're blind? We know who you work for, and we don't tolerate things the Brotherhood does from our members. As long as you work for the Dark Brotherhood, you will never join us." Now, the brotherhood might not be so forgiving if you decide to leave in order to join the Thieve's guild. You can certainly try, but assassination attempts might become more frequent in the near future until they decide you aren't worth wasting assassin's on anymore. From that point on, attempts to interact with the Brotherhood might be unfriendly, if not immediately hostile, and you would not be welcome back. The Thieve's guild, with their wealth of underground information, would have no doubt heard of your recent betrayal to the Brotherhood, and might accept you into their ranks seeing all that you did to join them. Now, take this into reverse. You are a thief, but you decide that outright assassination is easier and still allows you to become wealthy. So, you do what you need to do to be approached by the brotherhood and murder someone. The Thieve's Guild doesn't like this, and puts you on temporary suspension until you regain favor. In this time, you are approached by the brotherhood, and decide to accept the offer. The guild proceeds to contact you, and tell you that you have been permanently removed from the guild because they've heard about your dealings with the brotherhood. If they want to be mean to you, they can report your actions with the guild to the guards, and you may notice your bounty rise quite a bit.

If you have political guilds, like the Houses, things will work generally the same. Because those groups may not be strictly illegal, they won't outright hate you if you leave. You can leave, and they may even allow you to rejoin at a slightly lower position if you decide to. But, if you leave and then suddenly join an opposing group, your relations may become hostile. When you're out in the middle of nowhere, a hit squad could randomly appear, hoping that you can just "disappear" in the wilderness. After this, any other political groups out there would probably refuse you if you seek to abandon your second guild and join them too. If you become known as someone who switches alliances often, people will be less inclined to believe you when you say you want to join.

Now, say you're in both the Mage's guild and the Fighter's guild. You've advanced a bit in both, and neither guild has any problem with you being involved in both at your current ranking. Now, you do a few things for the Mage's guild, and you're offered a promotion. But before you can take this promotion, the Mage's guild doesn't know if you're ready for it, because your work with the Figher's guild might distract you from your Mage duties. You can accept the promotion, but if you do, you can't advance in the Fighter's guild anymore. If you also belong to an illegal organization, they may require you to outright leave because they don't want reputable members of the guild associated with other groups of ill repute. In the end, when you become Archmage, they may require you to outright cut off all other ties. As Archmage, the Mage's guild should be your only priority.

Just my $0.02 I guess. Probably belongs in the suggestion thread, but this thread is a suggestion in itself.

I am not a fan of the storyline feeling (pretty much what Hellmouth said), but my main problem was that there were too few guilds, you could be in all of them and every quest only has 1 possible outcome. I would like to see more diversity like in the House Hlaalu, where you could help Curio or the other person (I forgot the specifics).

I kind of liked Oblivion's system of Guild Storylines; I think it added a lot to the game in way of content (for example, I could want a story driven quest, but hate the Main, so I go do Fighter's and Mage's, or Dark Brotherhood and Thieve's, or any combination).

And Morrowind kind of had storylines, at least in the case of Morag Tong and Thieve's, although they were more collect-a-thons (Threads of the Webspinner) and Robin Hood-ish (Bal Molagmar (I think that was it)).

Assuming that the next TES has Guilds, I would like storylines, but implemented kind of like how Tausig put it. Like during Raven Rock, how you can choose to help Falco or that one [censored].

And there should be more Guilds as well. The one thing I disliked about Oblivion's system was the lack of quantity. Morrowind, on the other hand, has a guar-full of guilds you can choose from.

Oblivion could have needed more factions, and faction conflicts... also there should be more random tasks, less storyline, and skill requirements like in Morrowind.

There should also be more choices to be made during quests, and several possible solutions.

I think that Dark one got it right. There should be many ranks as their already are.

Guild and faction's missions should all have good reasoning behind them.

Contracts given by guild leaders should have stories behind them like the first fighter's guild quest about the rats in Oblivion. By this I mean that a client should have a job for you to do and it should have an interesting story, not just save the noble Orc lady from ogres. I want thoughtful stories for most quests.

There should be quests like the bounty hunter missions in Red Dead. Where you see the sign that says Dead or Alive and how much you get for the bounty. Except with thoughtful missions.

Agreed. Rather annoyed that I joined as a scholar, and am suddenly tasked to destroy an ultimate evil by a suicidal arch-mage.

Or join as a swordsman and be tasked to overthrow a corrupt mercenary corporation...

Or join as an assassin and be tasked to become intertwined in a big conspiracy theory in a thread of lies...

Or join as a theif and...well, nevermind. I think the thieves guild questline made sense.

Each "guild" was essentially just an extended side quest.

There were no guilds in the game, in the traditional sense, where you can pop into any guild hall and pick up a job, depending on rank.

It was just spark the questline by finding the right NPC or killing a random person. Get taken through a little story that you, yourself can have no direct impact on the outcome of (unless you consider going through the pre-scripted motions as actually accomplishing something yourself), and end up with a fancy title and 7 guildhalls full of free loot to sell.

That's what bothered me.

I want to be able to pick up a job at any guild hall I walk into, unless there's a legitimate reason, like "I gave your job to some spellsword" or "I have no more jobs for you right now."

This. Every guild leader in Morrowind had a job for you, even bone headed Trebonius. <_<

And none of that Cheydinhal guildmaster sending you to Bravil for a job. That contract for the prisoners would certainly have been fulfilled by the Bravil Fighters Guild.

"Find out what happened to the dwemer." :blink:

Indeed, that was very annoying. Even with fast travel that was annoying, and didn't make much sense.

There needs to be a lot more side jobs, that maybe you don't even have to fulfill all of them to rank up. Something to leave for possibly the next playthrough.

I agree with this. Why am I travelling to Bravil for Cheydinal's (or really any other city's) FG?

I would like to see more of a chain of command within the guilds. It would make sense, say, if you had been doing a lot of good work in Cheydinhal, and a higher up official in the FG (assuming they are all linked) in Bravil requested that you pay him a visit before doing any more jobs in Cheydinhal. THAT person sends you on the quest near Bravil, not the guy in Cheydinhal. A hierarchy not only makes the guilds make a bit more sense, there's always the possibility that different people of similar rank will be requesting you, and you will have to choose, and the guild story changes based on your choices. Could also lead to some uprisings

I think that the quest generation to "prove yourself" would fix the whole "I can be the leader of every guild in the game!" issue that many of us are having. Just make them more dependent on what the guild stands for. If you are doing something for the fighter's guild, physical damage and the ability to mitigate damage/dodge should be essential for completing the tasks. For the mage's guild, effectiveness in the schools of magic. You get the idea. That way, unless I actually deserve to get the next quest line job, I can't get it. I don't think it should be "Must have a sneak skill of 50 to rise in ranks" type of deal (how does the guild know my skill by just looking at me?), but rather by gaining the favor of guild members and proving your capabilities in the storyline missions.


Lastly, there definitely need to be more guilds. I like the idea of more politically oriented guilds, especially for people who like speechcraft. Have a number of guilds just devoted to politics, and you have the ability to rise in the ranks/establish your guild's position with the emperor and local rulers. That way, speechcraft isn't completely useless! Then have one for archers (FG seems more like a heavy armor and weapon guild, and my archer wasn't a thief), for healers...you can't have too many! And they definitely should not all be ok with each other. But they should really be more skill dependent.

I don't know why people are complaining that you can become the highest rank in a guild, maybe not for all of them but for some i liked being the highest


i think once you become a guildmaster ther should be a little more power you can exhibit.
in oblivion ther wasnt any real reason to go back to them

once your guildmaster you should have to maintain power of it, , or run it into the ground and lose all of its benefits
giving u a reason to want to control it