No, this is not The Elder Scrolls : V - Skyrim

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:56 pm

I agree with OP. The old system wasn't perfect, but that doesn't mean you have to get rid of it.

I like starting with a character who is potentially already fairly good at certain things. By picking a certain race and a certain skill set, I can have a character who starts out the game a little bit ahead. But if I want to make to make a jack of all trades, I can do that too, or pick a race just because I like it and pick skills that usually aren't associated with them...I won't be as good as that one race, but I'll still be better than all the others.

They've already introduced another mechanic - the Guardian Stones - to help speed things up without those initial boosts. Frankly I find that system annoying, tacky, and inelegant. That's the kind of system a game would use before they knew better. I hate Bethesda's willingness to start over from scratch "just because" rather than keeping the tried and true methods and tweaking the stuff that obviously doesn't work. "Turning a new leaf" is all well and good if you're an alcoholic, but doing so again once you're sober does nothing but cause you to relapse.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:24 pm

But in everysingle one of those games you got to think about the character you wanted to play and then to identify the skills you wanted to be your major, minor.
and so on. Also could pick whether you were primarily a Fighter, a Mage, or t stealth type.

Choosing which skills you want to build up and picking an archetype that provides boosts to those skills is a major part of the game. You can specialize your character within each archetype using the constellation stones and the perk system. You get to create a more unique character and actually play how you want to play. If you followed the demo you would be fully aware of this fact.

One of the things that has been the most fun for me in the es games is that initial character creating. You think, then you pick, then
you start the game.

In the beginning of the game you decide your Race, name, and how you look. Everything else happens while you play the game, and you decide who you are as you go a long.

Bah!!!

Whatever...

Behold and don t be surprised if you ll see this cake turn into a lie: You get to create a more unique character and actually play how you want to play

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:52 pm

I charge you with the crime of face palm engineering.
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:00 pm

For some people the constraint this new system implement will not be noticeable until maybe middle game. Then it will be like a slap in your face.
The first to notice it will be the one trying to bent the caracter away from inicial choices. This system maybe so harsh on it, that probably only with heavy modding this will be viable.
Because in this system the more you deviate from the rails, the more you ll loose competitivity until the point you ll have 2 choices:
Get back on rails or
reroll.

The classes are now large highways, you can go a little right a little left, but you will be on rails, thats the new Elder Scrolls games.

Are you describing Oblivion or Skyrim? Skyrim has no class system at all and let's you choose an archetype and different paths within those constellations using the constellation stones. You can change your constellation path at any time within the game by picking a different stone to give different skill boosts and probably different abilities & perks.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:39 am

Is this sparta?

The only thing that 'is' TES is an open ended world.

In fact I'd say the weakness in the class definitions is one of the stronger attributes of TES. The classes are so much less of a distinction than any other game. In very few other games could you be a warrior that changes his mind halfway through and becomes a mage, then changes again and becomes a thief.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:08 pm

Are you describing Oblivion or Skyrim? Skyrim has no class system at all and let's you choose an archetype and different paths within those constellations using the constellation stones. You can change your constellation path at any time within the game by picking a different stone to give different skill boosts and probably different abilities & perks.

I think you need comprehension class. Or maybe your just hype blind.
Take a breath reread, anolyse whats been given in the interviews until now. Try it, honestly, just once.
I don t hope you ll succeed, because when we are in a hype state we want to be blind.
I ve been there before.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:46 am

Is this sparta?

The only thing that 'is' TES is an open ended world.

In fact I'd say the weakness in the class definitions is one of the stronger attributes of TES. The classes are so much less of a distinction than any other game. In very few other games could you be a warrior that changes his mind halfway through and becomes a mage, then changes again and becomes a thief.

Exactly, you could change your mind and work on different skills that go against your initial class at anytime. The way the class system was presented to the player in Oblivion didn't make much sense. How could a guard determine your class by watching you play for half an hour. How do you know how you'll want to play outside the dungeon? The class system didn't fit well within the actual game play. This time around they want to implement a system that really makes it feel like your building up your own character like you wanted and tried to do in Oblivion.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:50 pm

Is this sparta?

The only thing that 'is' TES is an open ended world.

In fact I'd say the weakness in the class definitions is one of the stronger attributes of TES. The classes are so much less of a distinction than any other game. In very few other games could you be a warrior that changes his mind halfway through and becomes a mage, then changes again and becomes a thief.

But not anymore, in skyrim this has been sacrificed in the middle of the cries for more pure "classes", for OMG i can reach 100 be ubber god that shouldn t happens lolz help!

"As people cryed their own weaknesses, the gods shakled them into predetermined path for theyr own good." -Unknown quote.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:27 am

I love all the es games. Have played all of them to completion several times. By all I mean Arena, Battlespire, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion. And will certainly get and Skyrim. The es games are the best sandbox games around.

But in everysingle one of those games you got to think about the character you wanted to play and then to identify the skills you wanted to be your major, minor.
and so on. Also could pick whether you were primarily a Fighter, a Mage, or t stealth type.

My undestanding is that this has been pretty much stripped out of Skyrim . Sure you will have skills, and can decided for yourself what you are going to do, and the game then tracks them. But no real choices until you are actually playing.

One of the things that has been the most fun for me in the es games is that initial character creating. You think, then you pick, then
you start the game.

If that is not there, even if the game does have skills and perks that you pick up or increase along the way, character creation at the start is basically gone.

The lLast time around it was level scaling that was too rigid that everyone hated. This time it is going to be the character creation. WHy does Bethesda always start with the great magic sandbox formula and then somewho manage to mess part of it up?

Bah!!!

So you basically wanted the overused pick your stats and skills system right from the start? The new system is better and complaining about it aint gonna help it.
There isnt any argument here imo.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:53 am

I think you need comprehension class. Or maybe your just hype blind.
Take a breath reread, anolyse whats been given in the interviews until now. Try it, honestly, just once.
I don t hope you ll succeed, because when we are in a hype state we want to be blind.
I ve been there before.

You don't make any sense half the time, but you don't see me insulting you. How about you try forming a solid, logical statement, instead of insulting my ability to read?

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:57 pm

I think you need comprehension class. Or maybe your just hype blind.
Take a breath reread, anolyse whats been given in the interviews until now. Try it, honestly, just once.
I don t hope you ll succeed, because when we are in a hype state we want to be blind.
I ve been there before.

I've read it several times, still doesn't make sense. Have you played the game so many times you are an expert on the middle game? And are you saying this system won't let you deviate from a fixed class, because your character will become unviable? Simply not the case. A specialised character excels in a few situations, a more rounded character can be effective in more situations. You have the choice to be either, or anything in between, where is the problem?

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:04 pm

It is the Elder Scrolls and it is Skyrim. Sorry that your definition of the series is based on whether or not you pick a bunch of things at the beginning.

It's also quite hypocritical to praise past games as being sandbox games, then getting upset that they're making it more of a sandbox by allowing the player to be anyone they want with less restrictions, rather than forcing the player to get locked in a specific class-box that cannot be changed.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:52 pm

For some people the constraint this new system implement will not be noticeable until maybe middle game. Then it will be like a slap in your face.
The first to notice it will be the one trying to bent the caracter away from inicial choices. This system maybe so harsh on it, that probably only with heavy modding this will be viable.
Because in this system the more you deviate from the rails, the more you ll loose competitivity until the point you ll have 2 choices:
Get back on rails or
reroll.

I'm sorry but it is you who needs more comprehension. What your describing there is Morrowind and Oblivion's class based major/minor restrictions.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:20 am

No you won t be able, that is the hardest part....
You-won t-be-able.

The integrated structure of the game presented to us now, is not the same as before, and certainly is more constraining in various levels.
The kicking in won t know.
The From Oblivion won t notice much, maybe some will,
But all the old timers will, and a lot.

For some people the constraint this new system implement will not be noticeable until maybe middle game. Then it will be like a slap in your face.
The first to notice it will be the one trying to bent the caracter away from inicial choices. This system maybe so harsh on it, that probably only with heavy modding this will be viable.
Because in this system the more you deviate from the rails, the more you ll loose competitivity until the point you ll have 2 choices:
Get back on rails or
reroll.

The classes are now large highways, you can go a little right a little left, but you will be on rails, thats the new Elder Scrolls games.
And don t come with the [censored] that there s no class anymore, there where never classes but for initial stats, what determined your leveling was the archtype.

B-but... You will make choices.
You're just choosing your class through action rather than picking from a list.

Every class in the past TES games have been mixtures of the Stealth/Combat/Magic archetypes, and you'll still be able to be a Witchhunter or a Monk, you just wont pick the skills at the beginning.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:45 am

It's more realistic, not to mention gives the player a wide variety of options.

For example, what if you're a sneaky character and want to use some extra magical powers to boost your sneaking potential? Or do you want to be a warrior that uses magic for those pesky archers? Or simply be a pure warrior type that can go back and forth from sneak to warrior like Ezio from Assassin's Creed, specializing in sneaking but can fight very well when needs to? Or a fighter but can sneak when he needs to?

MANY POSSIBILITIES.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:33 pm

But not anymore, in skyrim this has been sacrificed in the middle of the cries for more pure "classes", for OMG i can reach 100 be ubber god that shouldn t happens lolz help!

"As people cryed their own weaknesses, the gods shakled them into predetermined path for theyr own good." -Unknown quote.

What? The whole point of this thread is that Skyrim has less pure classes.

Of course that's a little assumptive considering that perks will basically represent your class in a way that previous TES didn't.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:47 pm

In an RPG, who the character is and how good they are at something should be determined by stats right from the start of the game. In an action game, the character's ability is pretty much determined by the actual player's skill in the game, and their own actions.

Aside from stats being pretty much stripped away from the very start of the game, Skyrim still seems to lean more towards the RPG approach. Your character can only be as good as the stats allow them to be. They can specialize in certain skills and not others, etc.

Personally, I never really had a problem with the old way of doing things. I loved spending ages at the start of the game deciding who my character was. However, i'm not too upset about the new approach and don't see it as the enormous betrayal of the series some people seem to think it is.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:27 pm

In Oblivion, you started playing without making any choices beyond race and appearance. The first time I played the tutorial probably took me a good hour to complete, as I wandered around exploring and checking things out. It's not until after going though the goblin caves and adventuring a little that you meet back up with the Emperor and choose a birthsign, and not until he's been assassinated that you choose a class. By then, you've already done some playing.

Can you be sure that by the time you've done a similar amount of playing in Skyrim that you won't have been given the opportunity to make some character defining choices? Everyone seems to operate on the assumption that the absence of what's gone represents a net loss without regard to anything new that might replace it.

I choose to wait and see. After all it's only 143 days, 5 hours and 14 minutes before we know for sure.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:44 am

Behold and don t be surprised if you ll see this cake turn into a lie: You get to create a more unique character and actually play how you want to play

Please enlighten everyone here as to how that statement is a lie. And do use proper grammar, logic, reasoning, and critical thinking (beyond past examples that don't even apply anymore) when you respond.

Thanks.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:26 pm

...In Oblivion and Morrowind, I always made counter-intuitive skill selections, because I didn't always want a heavily-used skill. For other characters, I've been having to guess what skills I really wanted, especially for my Very Narrow builds (Sword, Board, And Armor) and "Jack of All Trade" characters.

Skyrim allows me to use my skills to define my character as I play.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:42 pm

Youre basically complaining that Beth has ruined the game and made a NON TES, and somehow Skyrim ISNT Skyrim(whatever that means) because part of character creation is now character development. Im afraid I dont understand why you and others are freaking out about this. It seems to come down to. "NO, Changes... Change EVIL!"

I am more than interested to see how this change affects how we play this version of TES. Beth has continued to tweak and change varies mechanics on a game to game basis, as they learn and experiment with ideas. I SO PREFER this over the horribly lame retreads we see with yearly sport games or COD money grabs. Beth literally puts years to make a new game and they constantly work on improving gameplay. Look at what they have been adding for us in this game just for RP purposes.

Crying about something you havent even experienced yet is LAME. :shakehead:

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:01 pm

Nothing to see here folks. Yer one Succellus has posted the rant against the game and gone offline. Move along.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:06 pm

Nothing to see here folks. Yer one Succellus has posted the rant against the game and gone offline. Move along.

Aww man, I missed it.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:17 pm

In an RPG, who the character is and how good they are at something should be determined by stats right from the start of the game. In an action game, the character's ability is pretty much determined by the actual player's skill in the game, and their own actions.

Aside from stats being pretty much stripped away from the very start of the game, Skyrim still seems to lean more towards the RPG approach. Your character can only be as good as the stats allow them to be. They can specialize in certain skills and not others, etc.

Personally, I never really had a problem with the old way of doing things. I loved spending ages at the start of the game deciding who my character was. However, I'm not too upset about the new approach and don't see it as the enormous betrayal of the series some people seem to think it is.

Surprisingly, I completely agree with your post. I would normally argue that the new system is better because it removes the useless gameplay aspect of major/minor specializations tied into classes. However, I do agree that I really don't care either way, as I can play the game in any number of ways with classes, without classes, with 8 attributes, with 3 attributes, etc. I really just don't need a certain organization of the RPG stats to make me able to enjoy an RPG. What I need is a game that works, and has stats that properly represent my gameplay choices and give me a proper roleplaying experience. How all of that is presented is honestly just irrelevant, imo.

» Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:11 am

Nothing to see here folks. Yer one Succellus has posted the rant against the game and gone offline. Move along.

Its still fun calling him out on his nonsense though... :wink_smile:

edit: I just read your sig for the first time Zen... Im afraid of being molested by argonians now... LOL