So is this some Kind of Joke?

Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:15 pm

This is a wall of Text :spotted owl: , if you've not figured out by the title its a Streamlining thread, :hubbahubba: I figure since its nowhere near the Skyrim section it won't get railroaded, basically I ask, what exactly is the point of some descisions returning some aspects from past games as a kind of Joke or some such. again this is a LONG post. if you do not like "complainers" or "whiners" this isn't the place to express it, if anything you can go back to the Skyrim section and make it seem bigger than it is :)




Spoiler
From Daggerfall to Skyrim we've seen some losses and we've seen some gains, lets look at that for a moment more closely


Daggerfall was pretty much the most massive influx of content to the series to date, had you beena budding TES guy/gal that time you'd find out that there is ALOT on your plate, though its not all visible at once (no Lod) nor availible BUT ITS THERE and sooner or later you'll come across it or it will come across you. its massive size easily concealed many secrets and things that at the time no doub't caused many 'holy crap I can do that?" moments, the Progenitor of RS in Daggerfall gave the world some life and dynamics (for a time) with the many random quests and events you can come across.


We move on to Morrowind, and its the single greatest lost of content to date BUT it magnified whats there and placed even more emphasis on what was availible, more
detail etc etc, Morrowind had enough in diversity for many radically different play throughs and offered more options in how you would go about your character in the World from the what 12-13 joinable/interactable guilds/Factions? not to mention the subtleties throughout the world staring one dead in the face, there was reason to explore and you weren't unreasonably punished for playing the way you want.

but let me start making my point here; take for example the many skills from language to climbing/swimming, pickpocketing etc etc It made sense for much of those to be "streamlined" since this was a new engine we're talking about you, couldn't climb (even though you can in Redguard) and spells like Charm/Frenzy/Calm filled what was left of the lost from Daggerfall,(Do not read that as the spells did what the langauge skills did in Daggerfall, THEY DON'T) you couldn't talk to creatures in morrowind, it made sense for the them to "remove" the clutter abit which is why things like Swimming, pickpocketing, etc etc as skills were streamlined BUT you could still do what you desired as far as the gameworld is concerned and benefit/get better at it (character-wise) speaking of characterwise the Character maker was reduced....hard...it was still there but in a shadow of what it once was, a light touch and you're off and through the door.


Then Comes Oblivion -FURTHER- Streamlining and this is were the sick joke part starts to make sense. remember that Character Histoire? yeah its wimpering now, also Axe and Blunt are merged, probably because they are both sticks with something hurtful at the end ok not gonna explode, All bladed weapons are are also made into "Blade" even though Longswords dont handle like Shortswords don't handle like daggers, but its streamlining, as far as marketing is concerned who cares nevermind the fact that perks for blade effected ALL "BLADES"... in addition the only thing "continued" in weapon Variety from Morrowind were the Katana and Dai-Katana, very funny beth, Very funny. Spears also kick the bucket, and never rise again for the next 5 years but we have staffs, with their own animations.

The....Archtypes? is the word im looking for? for the guilds gets constrewed into black and white period, you wonder what happened to the folks that were making stories in morrowind, what were they doing in Oblivion? its telling that the sidequests which where the biggest improvement Content-wise over Morrowind was far more engaging and interesting than the 3 "main" guilds and MQ of Oblivion but in terms of streamlining, you didnt need to be anyone special, you can complete each questline of the Guilds doing the complete opposite of what that archtype Guild is(magick as TG never sneaking, Fighting in MG never learning a spell (scrolls) and Theif in FG or even mage)....now don't get me wrong I love options and the unorthodox but to become the head of the mages guild with less than 20 in all magick schools is telling...and not in a Good way.

I wont go on about enchanting since its in my next point nor levitation or mark/recall etc etc because thats basically what fast travel did. without consequence. and I'm staying away from the really over done AND poorly implemented levelscaling



So We move to Skyrim, Streamlining so hard that they had to go back and get fillers or maybe some attempt at a laugh.


Attributes bit the dust, completely WHY I don't know but H/M/S is there.....as it has been since Arena, apparently its something "NEW" now, Perks get Ballooned to hell and apparently they do what Attributes did for Skills themselves, ok I get that, now go back and read that again to realize this, Attributes weren't there just for Skills but no matter how coherent a post I make about that It still seems to not click so i wont go there.

Oh your history is gone too, the marketing bs is that you grow into your character, I ask when Have I not been able to do that before? the only "Spreadsheety" bit which I call OPTIONS was the class maker, but apparently birthsigns and specializations is Complex, the joke? Guardian stones

Spell makings Gone, Kaput but you can Dual wield....but you can't combine two different spells, and to combine the same spells you need a perk. other than spells like Frost being streamlined Pretty Frost spell effect with Paralyze sewn in to them, there is 0 improvement aside from it being pretty, me thinks folks shouldn't have griped so hard about colored balls.
Enchantings Back though(YAY) but really are they trying to be funny?


Pickpocketing is a skill again....WHY, ha aha ha ha, you know contrary to the tone of this post I would have actually welcomed Security/Sneak/Pickpocketing being streamlined into one Skill and then from perks you decide what kind of stealthy guy you are, I'll keep my opinions about Pickpocketing as a skill again to myself.


Did I mention Staffs are back? yeah with Animations that no other weapons use, oh and you can kick, but not really since its a finisher, you know all the flash and glare, the effort put into making something thats gonna get boring in a few months but no spears or Crossbows because of time constraints? funny.

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chloe hampson
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

The only game I can think of that is not Streamlined is ArmA.

*snip*


It's not a joke, it's trolling. They are like: "Lol, we can't bring back spears, but we can bring back pickpocketing", and at the same time, they cut out numinit load of content!

P.S.: Heck! Even Battlespire has Crossbows and Spears!
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Breanna Van Dijk
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:32 pm

At first I was as angry as any other MW player at the "streamlining" of Skyrim, but then I opened my mind and allowed Todd to explain himself. As it is known, there is no more weapon "skills" as we know them. The weapon styles have been reduced to one or two hand. This is bad, right? Well, let's hold on and see what Todd explained.

I think I was watching a demo (might have been the hour long podcast interview though) and Todd stated that while melee has been reduced, the skill tree offers perks depending on specialization. This means that when I'm swinging an ax, I feel like it's different than a mace (i.e.: ax has a DoT, maces stun, stuff like that). Previously, all weapons really felt the same. They all did the same thing the same way. It was all so very dull and a simple numbers game to get the velocity to the point where it staggers your opponent. That was "deep"? That is what we want to hold on to? Not me. With the ability to make each type of weapon feel different, I'll forgo dice roll and overwhelming weapon "styles" any day of the week.

With magic, I'm so tired of having no essential difference between destruction spells of damage health, fire, frost or shock damage. Now Todd is saying that freezing someone freezes them and lighting someone on fire, well lights them on fire. This sounds like an improvement.

About perks, I think that Todd misspoke. I've played Fallout since, well, Fallout so I think I have a fair understanding of perks. Yes, perks are dependent on many or all of the following: level, gender, skill levels, attributes, previous perks and karma (might not be all of them, but I think a got most of the conditions). In addition, perks can be leveled themselves (bonus move lvl2). They are not some shallow and pedantic system that many make them out to be. However, what seems to be in Skyrim are not perks, but a skill tree that offers extreme specialization. Not to mention there are 250 (confirmed number) different skill to chose. Let's say you max out on leveling in the 70s. That means that you have only used 28%-32% of all available skills. Yet this is considered somehow a reduction.

This post will probably make me sound like the dreaded really devoted fan, but I'm really not. There are things that I am apprehensive about, but I wont pass judgment until I have had the opportunity to play all of it myself. I'm just so sick of so many people ranting and foaming at the mouth about how Skyrim is the end of ES when no one on this earth aside from its development team has seen or played more than 30 minutes of this game. So please, let's hold off on the boo-hooing, flaming, name calling, pouting and trolling until we know more than next to nothing.

[edit: only Battlespire, and Morrowind had spears]
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Bad News Rogers
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:04 pm

At first I was as angry as any other MW player at the "streamlining" of Skyrim, but then I opened my mind and allowed Todd to explain himself. As it is known, there is no more weapon "skills" as we know them. The weapon styles have been reduced to one or two hand. This is bad, right? Well, let's hold on and see what Todd explained.

I think I was watching a demo (might have been the hour long podcast interview though) and Todd stated that while melee has been reduced, the skill tree offers perks depending on specialization. This means that when I'm swinging an ax, I feel like it's different than a mace (i.e.: ax has a DoT, maces stun, stuff like that). Previously, all weapons really felt the same. They all did the same thing the same way. It was all so very dull and a simple numbers game to get the velocity to the point where it staggers your opponent. That was "deep"? That is what we want to hold on to? Not me. With the ability to make each type of weapon feel different, I'll forgo dice roll and overwhelming weapon "styles" any day of the week.

With magic, I'm so tired of having no essential difference between destruction spells of damage health, fire, frost or shock damage. Now Todd is saying that freezing someone freezes them and lighting someone on fire, well lights them on fire. This sounds like an improvement.

About perks, I think that Todd misspoke. I've played Fallout since, well, Fallout so I think I have a fair understanding of perks. Yes, perks are dependent on many or all of the following: level, gender, skill levels, attributes, previous perks and karma (might not be all of them, but I think a got most of the conditions). In addition, perks can be leveled themselves (bonus move lvl2). They are not some shallow and pedantic system that many make them out to be. However, what seems to be in Skyrim are not perks, but a skill tree that offers extreme specialization. Not to mention there are 250 (confirmed number) different skill to chose. Let's say you max out on leveling in the 70s. That means that you have only used 28%-32% of all available skills. Yet this is considered somehow a reduction.

This post will probably make me sound like the dreaded really devoted fan, but I'm really not. There are things that I am apprehensive about, but I wont pass judgment until I have had the opportunity to play all of it myself. I'm just so sick of so many people ranting and foaming at the mouth about how Skyrim is the end of ES when no one on this earth aside from its development team has seen or played more than 30 minutes of this game. So please, let's hold off on the boo-hooing, flaming, name calling, pouting and trolling until we know more than next to nothing.

[edit: only Battlespire, and Morrowind had spears]

I was going to post a lengthy reply spelling it all out for the OP too, but hey, you've already said it all perfectly.

Unfortunately a lot of people will jump to these doom and gloom conclusions before playing the game, fixating on the negatives and ignoring the positives, but that's why they'll always be game players and not game developers. Give the nay-sayers a few days with Skyrim and I'm sure 90% of them will be converted. Just a shame you can't please everyone.
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sarah
 
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Post » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:31 am

At first I was as angry as any other MW player at the "streamlining" of Skyrim, but then I opened my mind and allowed Todd to explain himself. As it is known, there is no more weapon "skills" as we know them. The weapon styles have been reduced to one or two hand. This is bad, right? Well, let's hold on and see what Todd explained.

I think I was watching a demo (might have been the hour long podcast interview though) and Todd stated that while melee has been reduced, the skill tree offers perks depending on specialization. This means that when I'm swinging an ax, I feel like it's different than a mace (i.e.: ax has a DoT, maces stun, stuff like that). Previously, all weapons really felt the same. They all did the same thing the same way. It was all so very dull and a simple numbers game to get the velocity to the point where it staggers your opponent. That was "deep"? That is what we want to hold on to? Not me. With the ability to make each type of weapon feel different, I'll forgo dice roll and overwhelming weapon "styles" any day of the week.

With magic, I'm so tired of having no essential difference between destruction spells of damage health, fire, frost or shock damage. Now Todd is saying that freezing someone freezes them and lighting someone on fire, well lights them on fire. This sounds like an improvement.

About perks, I think that Todd misspoke. I've played Fallout since, well, Fallout so I think I have a fair understanding of perks. Yes, perks are dependent on many or all of the following: level, gender, skill levels, attributes, previous perks and karma (might not be all of them, but I think a got most of the conditions). In addition, perks can be leveled themselves (bonus move lvl2). They are not some shallow and pedantic system that many make them out to be. However, what seems to be in Skyrim are not perks, but a skill tree that offers extreme specialization. Not to mention there are 250 (confirmed number) different skill to chose. Let's say you max out on leveling in the 70s. That means that you have only used 28%-32% of all available skills. Yet this is considered somehow a reduction.

This post will probably make me sound like the dreaded really devoted fan, but I'm really not. There are things that I am apprehensive about, but I wont pass judgment until I have had the opportunity to play all of it myself. I'm just so sick of so many people ranting and foaming at the mouth about how Skyrim is the end of ES when no one on this earth aside from its development team has seen or played more than 30 minutes of this game. So please, let's hold off on the boo-hooing, flaming, name calling, pouting and trolling until we know more than next to nothing.

[edit: only Battlespire, and Morrowind had spears]


You assume I'm some angry Morrowind Player but I have detailed out spanning several games and gave -unbaised- queries(more or less) about each game not even morrowind was clean of fault. there is a reason I did not bring up one handers/two handers. I like how its implemented, I do feel they could have gone further but they didn't. if you've seen the skill list and I am assuming you have, then you must have notice the redundant repeat and percentage bonuses that litter the trees, SKILLS on their own I feel should have handled that, and more Perks like Shield charge I feel should be apparent, and Not inherent weaon effects like axes cause bleeding damage, NO I do not find it attractive that my axe needs permission to make people bleed, so your 2nd Paragraph at how weapons feel different only apply AFTER perks have been obtained.

I also did not say there as anything deep about weapon styles, they never have been. I do however enjoy the options, nowhere did I say a Katana in Morrowind handled differently than a wazakashi or Longsword, they dont, but the OPTIONS to use and to be used against are what I care about. notice I did not bring up the lack of armor variety in Oblivion, this is not an Oblivion Bashing thread. your bright outlook on perks leaves something to be desired as I am not sure you've actually -SEEN- what perks are offered to make a statement that one can be specialized, the perks shown really aren't that game changing, infact I think we're just missing the details of One tree.

I also do not see the Boo-hoo-flaming etc etc you speak off, nor am I focusing on Skyrim which is why this is in the general discussions thread and I honestly do not believe its as prevelant as some forumers would have you believe, its been 10 months and we know

  • The majority of the Perks for all Skills
  • the cans and cannots of how to effect your character with regards to leveling and skills.
  • The region the game is set in
  • starting story.
  • handling and play type based on many many folks who've played the game


what we Don't know are standard things like, the amount of Quests there are (duh), the ending, and various aesthetics/ other factors that I am NOT discussing that we have significant information about. this has nothing to do with pleasing the unpleasable, This thread asks whats with the near kick while you're down design descisions over the ages as detailed above, not "WHY CAN'T SKYRiM BE THE GAME I WANT" like I stated earlier, this is not an Oblivion bashing thread, its Why are you doing this and not doing that making what your doing now amount to :not making much sense.
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joannARRGH
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:25 pm

As much as I would love to read this entire thing and will later, I have to go somewhere shortly and don't have much time to type right now. In conclusion, I'd just like to say...









I want Daggerfall's character creator back!!!!! :cryvaultboy:
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Jessie Butterfield
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:42 pm

I walk into a bar. The barkeep offers bud light, miller light and coors light.

I walk into another bar. They only server Guinness

What is the point of options if they are all the same?

The real difference between a spear and a sword is a mesh and a texture.The only difference between fire and frost is color. I'd much rather have one really good thing that I enjoy (the Guinness) than the same thing wrapped in different packaging (the other beers). And of course I'm referring to weapons felling different after the application of the skill tree. At the begging, many things will feel the same...heck all of us will be starting in the same position, the same way. It is after that we are allowed to be come specialists and allowed to chose how our skills function. Just on the shield tree I notice that a combatant will have to choose between magical resistance or being about to counter with a shield. As far as not game changing, let's look at sneak (as a reminder, this is just a list, not the in game representation of what we will have to choose).

Sneak

20% harder to detect (ranked)
Sneak attacks do 6x damage with 1h weapons
Sneak attacks with bows do 3x damage
Sneak attacks with daggers do 15x damage (end perk on skill tree)
Noise from armour reduced 50%
No longer activate pressure plates
Sprinting while sneaking performs silent forward roll
Running does not affect detection chance
Crouching can make hostile enemies lose sight of you and search for a target

So all these perks are percentage base? Yes, there are many but there are also game changers. Being able to do 15x more damage while sneaking sounds like a game changer along with being able to vanish in the heat of battle.
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Bedford White
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:46 pm

I walk into a bar. The barkeep offers bud light, miller light and coors light.
And then, a skeleton walks into that bar and orders a beer and a mop.

I walk into another bar. They only server Guinness
And a pirate was sitting at the bar with a steering wheel under his trousers. The barkeep noticed it, and ask bemusedly, "Um, why do you have a steering wheel in your pants?"

The pirate answers with, "Arr! And it's driving me nuts!"


... Yes, this is some kind of joke.
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TASTY TRACY
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:32 pm

Spoiler
From Daggerfall to Skyrim we've seen some losses and we've seen some gains, lets look at that for a moment more closely


Daggerfall was pretty much the most massive influx of content to the series to date, had you beena budding TES guy/gal that time you'd find out that there is ALOT on your plate, though its not all visible at once (no Lod) nor availible BUT ITS THERE and sooner or later you'll come across it or it will come across you. its massive size easily concealed many secrets and things that at the time no doub't caused many 'holy crap I can do that?" moments, the Progenitor of RS in Daggerfall gave the world some life and dynamics (for a time) with the many random quests and events you can come across.


We move on to Morrowind, and its the single greatest lost of content to date BUT it magnified whats there and placed even more emphasis on what was availible, more
detail etc etc, Morrowind had enough in diversity for many radically different play throughs and offered more options in how you would go about your character in the World from the what 12-13 joinable/interactable guilds/Factions? not to mention the subtleties throughout the world staring one dead in the face, there was reason to explore and you weren't unreasonably punished for playing the way you want.

but let me start making my point here; take for example the many skills from language to climbing/swimming, pickpocketing etc etc It made sense for much of those to be "streamlined" since this was a new engine we're talking about you, couldn't climb (even though you can in Redguard) and spells like Charm/Frenzy/Calm filled what was left of the lost from Daggerfall,(Do not read that as the spells did what the langauge skills did in Daggerfall, THEY DON'T) you couldn't talk to creatures in morrowind, it made sense for the them to "remove" the clutter abit which is why things like Swimming, pickpocketing, etc etc as skills were streamlined BUT you could still do what you desired as far as the gameworld is concerned and benefit/get better at it (character-wise) speaking of characterwise the Character maker was reduced....hard...it was still there but in a shadow of what it once was, a light touch and you're off and through the door.


Then Comes Oblivion -FURTHER- Streamlining and this is were the sick joke part starts to make sense. remember that Character Histoire? yeah its wimpering now, also Axe and Blunt are merged, probably because they are both sticks with something hurtful at the end ok not gonna explode, All bladed weapons are are also made into "Blade" even though Longswords dont handle like Shortswords don't handle like daggers, but its streamlining, as far as marketing is concerned who cares nevermind the fact that perks for blade effected ALL "BLADES"... in addition the only thing "continued" in weapon Variety from Morrowind were the Katana and Dai-Katana, very funny beth, Very funny. Spears also kick the bucket, and never rise again for the next 5 years but we have staffs, with their own animations.

The....Archtypes? is the word im looking for? for the guilds gets constrewed into black and white period, you wonder what happened to the folks that were making stories in morrowind, what were they doing in Oblivion? its telling that the sidequests which where the biggest improvement Content-wise over Morrowind was far more engaging and interesting than the 3 "main" guilds and MQ of Oblivion but in terms of streamlining, you didnt need to be anyone special, you can complete each questline of the Guilds doing the complete opposite of what that archtype Guild is(magick as TG never sneaking, Fighting in MG never learning a spell (scrolls) and Theif in FG or even mage)....now don't get me wrong I love options and the unorthodox but to become the head of the mages guild with less than 20 in all magick schools is telling...and not in a Good way.

I wont go on about enchanting since its in my next point nor levitation or mark/recall etc etc because thats basically what fast travel did. without consequence. and I'm staying away from the really over done AND poorly implemented levelscaling



So We move to Skyrim, Streamlining so hard that they had to go back and get fillers or maybe some attempt at a laugh.


Attributes bit the dust, completely WHY I don't know but H/M/S is there.....as it has been since Arena, apparently its something "NEW" now, Perks get Ballooned to hell and apparently they do what Attributes did for Skills themselves, ok I get that, now go back and read that again to realize this, Attributes weren't there just for Skills but no matter how coherent a post I make about that It still seems to not click so i wont go there.

Oh your history is gone too, the marketing bs is that you grow into your character, I ask when Have I not been able to do that before? the only "Spreadsheety" bit which I call OPTIONS was the class maker, but apparently birthsigns and specializations is Complex, the joke? Guardian stones

Spell makings Gone, Kaput but you can Dual wield....but you can't combine two different spells, and to combine the same spells you need a perk. other than spells like Frost being streamlined Pretty Frost spell effect with Paralyze sewn in to them, there is 0 improvement aside from it being pretty, me thinks folks shouldn't have griped so hard about colored balls.
Enchantings Back though(YAY) but really are they trying to be funny?


Pickpocketing is a skill again....WHY, ha aha ha ha, you know contrary to the tone of this post I would have actually welcomed Security/Sneak/Pickpocketing being streamlined into one Skill and then from perks you decide what kind of stealthy guy you are, I'll keep my opinions about Pickpocketing as a skill again to myself.


Did I mention Staffs are back? yeah with Animations that no other weapons use, oh and you can kick, but not really since its a finisher, you know all the flash and glare, the effort put into making something thats gonna get boring in a few months but no spears or Crossbows because of time constraints? funny.



I couldn't agree with you more. You have summed up my thoughts over the past few years in one post. :thumbsup:

That being said, I love TES, and will remain loyal for the foreseeable future.
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Zach Hunter
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:16 pm

Daggerfall was randomly generated outside. Anyway Morrowind probably had one of the worst combat systems I have experienced, sure it was to simulate the effect of training but they could've made the damage very low. I think although certain things are removed, others are added and this makes each TES game different. No need to be a negative nancy.
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Lizzie
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:22 pm

I want Daggerfall's character creator back!!!!! :cryvaultboy:


Yeah, more rpg back in the game would be nice. That's what's had my love of the series so strong. What kind of role playing game has no base attributes?! What kind of role playing game has you make a single meaningful choice for the entirety of character generation and all characters start exactly the same outside of that choice? An action computer game, apparently. The people that are "defending" it against the people missing the rpg content simply don't get the point. They're not looking for a classic rpg, they're looking for a "fun game" and no doubt, it will be fun. It's just highly disappointing that the series I looked to for the best representation of classic rpg turned its back on the origins.

I'd wager that none of the individual omissions make the game less playable or unenjoyable on their own, but when added up, the more that was liked of that which is now gone is more that is missed. At some point, it's not the same type of experience. I don't feel it's trolling. Perhaps the goal or vision has changed. Some people accuse games of not evolving, but evolving can ultimately give an end product unliked by those who liked original product.

People complaining about stuff being removed from the game are simply giving feedback that they liked something and it was removed. Some people (on boths sides) have a tendency to over dramatize. Ultimately, the company will do whatever they end up deciding on doing, and some customers will be pleased enough to continue purchasing. Others will not. I just thought their vision was classical rpg, because they did it very well for the series until Skyrim. Either Skyrim is a fluke - a design decision made to get away from the previous system with its flaws instead of fixing the system, or they've moved on. It'd be nice to get an official answer on that.
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Katy Hogben
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:37 pm

Yeah, more rpg back in the game would be nice. That's what's had my love of the series so strong. What kind of role playing game has no base attributes?! What kind of role playing game has you make a single meaningful choice for the entirety of character generation and all characters start exactly the same outside of that choice? An action computer game, apparently. The people that are "defending" it against the people missing the rpg content simply don't get the point. They're not looking for a classic rpg, they're looking for a "fun game" and no doubt, it will be fun. It's just highly disappointing that the series I looked to for the best representation of classic rpg turned its back on the origins.

I'd wager that none of the individual omissions make the game less playable or unenjoyable on their own, but when added up, the more that was liked of that which is now gone is more that is missed. At some point, it's not the same type of experience. I don't feel it's trolling. Perhaps the goal or vision has changed. Some people accuse games of not evolving, but evolving can ultimately give an end product unliked by those who liked original product.

People complaining about stuff being removed from the game are simply giving feedback that they liked something and it was removed. Some people (on boths sides) have a tendency to over dramatize. Ultimately, the company will do whatever they end up deciding on doing, and some customers will be pleased enough to continue purchasing. Others will not. I just thought their vision was classical rpg, because they did it very well for the series until Skyrim. Either Skyrim is a fluke - a design decision made to get away from the previous system with its flaws instead of fixing the system, or they've moved on. It'd be nice to get an official answer on that.

I don't think the vision's been "changed" as much as it has started to become more fully realized. I quite enjoy the philosophy behind Skyrim: This is finally a game about organic character development, with constant meaningful choices along the way, as opposed to an RPG where you can map your entire build out at level 1, and the advance to level Whatever is just "unlocking" your character.

I'd say that TES has remained the truest to the Old-School RPG character creation theory, back in 1st edition AD&D where you had to roll your attributes (six sets of 3d6 IN ORDER), where you didn't have any control of the creation of your character, Race and Class were dependant on how well your starting attributes were, and all other abilities were derived from nothing you had control over (Except the loose control over Race and Class). Skyrim takes that to its logical extreme, but removes the "Randomness", giving you only your racial modifiers to your attributes (Attributes in Skyrim being the "Skill" and H/M/S). So, you take what you've been "dealt", and it's up to you to see how he progresses.

In fact, looking back at D&D, attributes aren't even neccessary if you use a robust-enough Feat+Skill system (Which Skyrim does). The only real change would be locking all attributes in the "Neutral" position. (d20 had 10 and 11 as "Neutral"), and removing any arbitrary attribute requirements on feats and/or items. On level up, in addition to choosing a feat (Your skills have increased automatically), you get to choose whether you want to increase your Hit Die for that level, your Magicka Point Pool, or Stamina (which doesn't usually appear as such in Tabletop games).

Maybe I should post a "Skyrim: The Tabletop RPG" after the game comes out and we can play with the actual numbers.
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Sophh
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:32 pm

I don't think the vision's been "changed" as much as it has started to become more fully realized. I quite enjoy the philosophy behind Skyrim: This is finally a game about organic character development, with constant meaningful choices along the way, as opposed to an RPG where you can map your entire build out at level 1, and the advance to level Whatever is just "unlocking" your character.

I'd say that TES has remained the truest to the Old-School RPG character creation theory, back in 1st edition AD&D where you had to roll your attributes (six sets of 3d6 IN ORDER), where you didn't have any control of the creation of your character, Race and Class were dependant on how well your starting attributes were, and all other abilities were derived from nothing you had control over (Except the loose control over Race and Class). Skyrim takes that to its logical extreme, but removes the "Randomness", giving you only your racial modifiers to your attributes (Attributes in Skyrim being the "Skill" and H/M/S). So, you take what you've been "dealt", and it's up to you to see how he progresses.

In fact, looking back at D&D, attributes aren't even neccessary if you use a robust-enough Feat+Skill system (Which Skyrim does). The only real change would be locking all attributes in the "Neutral" position. (d20 had 10 and 11 as "Neutral"), and removing any arbitrary attribute requirements on feats and/or items. On level up, in addition to choosing a feat (Your skills have increased automatically), you get to choose whether you want to increase your Hit Die for that level, your Magicka Point Pool, or Stamina (which doesn't usually appear as such in Tabletop games).

Maybe I should post a "Skyrim: The Tabletop RPG" after the game comes out and we can play with the actual numbers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game_terms. Every character, even in 1st edition, was created with so much potential to walk out the front door differently. I would not call D&D the goto game for this series, especially considering the skill and advancement system they've used. Other game systems like GURPS or to a lesser degree White Wolf might be more accurate, but modified to 100's instead of 3d6 or d10. Also, you're not magically going to get the 15x dagger sneak multiplier by doing things willy-nilly. You'll still have to do some level of planning, and you will have to "UNLOCK" the ability to do 15x sneak attacks. And likely, you'll have to take other stealth perks to fully realized the potential of those without being detected. If you have an idea for a build, you'll still need to plan, just like you did before, but with less of the headache of 5/5/5 or 5/5/1. The 50 perk limit means you'll have to have reached all the unlocking skill levels you're going for before level 51, or you will never see the combination of perks that you would want for. Level 51 will come at your 500th skill-up regardless. And if you're too even, that's 27-28 points each across 18 skills. That spells access to no high end perks unless you specifically focus your training up front to UNLOCK the perks. And there are going to be people going for certain perks as soon as they can get them - which will be exactly what you claim is bad of rpgs - planning one's entire build from level 1. Your argument regarding planning and unlocking still has the problem in the game, even without character creation. Character design doesn't cause the problem.

I do want to point out your argument of "locking attributes in the neutral position" as a way of normalizing the system, or "dumbing it down." By reducing variation and complexities, you reduce differences and make it easier for those who don't know how or want to make use of the system, and less advantageous for those willing to learn it and use it. This lowers the learning curve, and reduces the value of the skill of system learning. New variation is placed differently, in character development from play through perks by leveling. Note however, Fallout 3, which included both an attribute system and skills and perks. They're not exclusive, and Bethesda proved it. Perks and character creation do not have to be exclusive.

I can't help but seeing everything in your post as apologist with the limited vision that D&D is the only rpg out there. In fact, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_history_of_The_Elder_Scrolls_series#Daggerfall_.281994.E2.80.931996.29. You claim to understand the philosophy behind Skyrim, I'd like to see your source so I can make decisions based on the developer's statements. If it's regarding http://www.skyrim5.com/2011/07/no-restarts/ ... see above. If you are around level 40 and realized you wanted a couple of perks that you didn't focus on early enough, guess what. Start over. Ironically, with the attribute system and skill system the way it used to be, you didn't have to start over, just play more, level up, and fill out the skills and attributes. With perks, it's only gotten worse. And as far as the http://www.xbox360achievements.org/news/news-8115-Todd-Howard-Talks-Elder-Scrolls-V--Skyrim%E2%80%99s-Engine-Advancements-and-Skill-Streamlining.html it shows a design choice reflecting a lack of understanding of rpg attributes as only trickle down contributors. This is where my fear for the series comes from, as the series has moved slowly away from meaningful attributes, looking back. Before, having a high attribute score used to mean more than just the sum of its modifiers, affecting advancement in guilds as well as conversations. I see Fallout 3 is very dumbed down compared to Fallout 2 in terms of the effects attributes alone had on gameplay. (Play Fallout 2 with an int of 1 and prepare to laugh your butt off. Play again with an int of 10, and it's almost another completely different story compared to the base int of 5.) To me, this was a SOURCE of replay value. I enjoyed rerolling and completing the game with a different character. The concept that removing attributes increases gameplay value and reduces need to reroll is simply wrong. It does neither. All it does it take the game one more (large) step away from RPG toward action game.

I challenge you with finding an existing tabletop rpg that has no base attribute system. Find one where character creation consists of 1 choice and every character is exactly the same outside of that choice. If what you say about "truest" has any substance, there should be a popular tabletop rpg without attributes, where characters start exactly the same. Health/Mana/Stamina isn't an rpg primary attribute system. They are derived attributes at best, and level/class/dynamic controlled at worst. Individually or combined they're used in action games, and even card games. Magic: The Gathering uses health, mana in the form of land cards active, and stamina in the form of limiting what you can do at any given time / turn sequencing rules.

PS Stamina as a constantly replenishing pool tends not to exist specifically in tabletops as managing it would be atrocious. Instead, turn based combat (because computers can do things so much faster than a group of humans rolling dice) and attribute checks are used for things that might be considered taxing, depending on the game master. Even 1st edition D&D had #attacks per turn. Those classes that trained physically grew in stamina to attack more frequently without losing performance. So ... good luck with your game that has no base attributes and a replenishing stamina pool.

Oh, and none of this is an argument that "Skyrim will svck." It will be a good game for what it is. But what it is not - reflective of rpg elements that have been represented in the series until this game. That is my disappointment. If they keep going in their present direction, they've left one genre for another. It may work for a lot of people, but not for me, and some others like me. I was craving the rpg, having played mmos for too long now (which also lack the rpg aspect, despite the foundations). The freedom of character skill is a plus, but the lack of character creation is a shared minus with the mmos. It will be a nice break, but not the game I was looking forward to, given the earlier games in the series.
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Jerry Cox
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:13 pm

As long as I have sufficient OTHER options to customize my character. I don't really care about attributes. Particularly if it means attributes tied to the absolutely HORRIBLE leveling system of Oblivion. The dumbing down meme is really self contradictory as it hinges ultimately on what sort of systems for character complexity exist. In and of itself the removal of a character trait feature is a net loss of complexity. However, if sufficient new types of character variation are added it's difficult to argue the game is essentially dumbed down, depending on the nature of the added elements and what was removed. I am going to hold judgement on Skyrim until I get a chance to make a number of characters and play them extensively. However giving the the new systems in place that will at face value improve my character development experience. I don't expect that I will miss attributes.
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Killah Bee
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:17 am

I know this really isn't helpful but I really can't help myself. I often wish the whole" dumbing down" cycle of complaints was just a joke. Each game doesn't seem dumbed down to me . just the opposite . We lose certain features and gain others. If you liked the feature and its gone, its dumbed down. I'll give you things are lost and whether more is gained is subjective but I disagree with the whole "dumbed down " obsession.


Frankly, Morrowind seemed to "smart up"if anything form Daggerfall. If I'd started originally with daggerfall and not have my appetizer of Redguard them Morrowind, I wouldn't be here today. Character creation is superficially nice but its like an Allan Moore graphic novel, it seems deep but if you really look at it its only illusion IMO. I'm happy where thngs are going.
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BaNK.RoLL
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:08 pm

I don't see a problem with removing Attributes if the new system can effectively replace them. On the other hand, it has been shown that there are some severe limitations to the diversity of your starting character with the new system. All in all, it may make for a good game, but I'm waiting to see how it plays out before "accepting" the new approach.

The tradeoffs between DF and MW were numerous in both directions, and I can understand how some players felt that the later game was "shallower" in some respects. Both games still were very much "RPGs" at the core, with "action" elements as a secondary concern. The complaints about the lack-luster combat system were valid to a degree, but were partially "fixable", and of less importance than the underlying game mechanics, storyline, and character development, at least to a sizable portion of the fanbase.

Oblivion still retained many of the RPG mechanics (including the hated and awkward level-up "multipliers"), but made poor or minimal use of Attributes and Skills compared to the earlier games; it was more "Action" than "RPG". Perks were introduced, and actually created LESS variety than without, because every character got them at certain skill levels regardless of whether they were Major or Minor skills; you had no choice but to take them. The linearity of the game was batantly obvious: items appeared in the game world when your "level" triggered them, and many "low level" items essentially vanished except for what was in yours or some merchants' inventories. The excessive scaling in the game essentially "broke" character advancement to at least some degree. It was still an RPG of sorts, but the "Action" element had clearly moved to the fore.

Skyrim tossed Attributes almost completely (because everyone knows they were nothing but an annoyance in OB, right?), and all of the promo we're being fed is about combat, killing dragons, and how you can do all sorts of stuff related to combat, and combat, and also about combat...and did I mention combat? The game may turn out to be great anyway, but it's being promoted and demo'ed primarily as an action game, even though it's still being listed as an RPG. Funny, but a lot of the RPG elements outside of combat appear to have gotten short-changed in the process. Somehow, I'm finding it harder and harder to believe that this RPG without Attributes is really an RPG.....
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Rhiannon Jones
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:30 pm

I'm not seeing The Elder Scroll's "RPG" status as being threatened, partially because the genre's so spread out. To me, an RPG is about character development and customization, which Skyrim shows plenty of with the wide range of skills (I wish they'd implement Cross-Training instead of just outright merging skills) and diversity of perks to choose from on level-up.

Attributes have been broken since Morrowind, which introduced the level-up multipliers. It's possible to make character development too organic. Morrowind took the depth and interest out of leveling up with the multipliers: The fun part of leveling up is making decisions that will determine how (s)he's going to play through the next level, which offers the fun of experimentation and discovery. Morrowind got that backward, treating attributes as a review of the previous level, which has all the fun of itemizing tax deductions. Skyrim's perks re-introduce forward-looking level-up mechanics.

...I'm so glad I found an Oblivion mod that gives me a pool of points on level-up instead of the worthless multipliers.
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Melly Angelic
 
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Post » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:30 am

Daggerfall = My all time favorite game.... EVER!!!!

Morrowind = OMG A DAGGERFALL SEQUEL!!! .... wait a min.... ok it is forgivable = very much enjoyed.

Oblivion = Yaay another ES! maybe they'll bring back some stuff from DF = Fast travel/Horse Riding = Really? = Meh = It was ok

Skyrim = They better bring back.... = Flash! = Laughable = Beth... I hate you!


I'll pick Skyrim up after I find it in a bargin bin years from now.

Did I say I hate Bethesda?

Grrrr
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DeeD
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:57 pm

Daggerfall = My all time favorite game.... EVER!!!!

Morrowind = OMG A DAGGERFALL SEQUEL!!! .... wait a min.... ok it is forgivable = very much enjoyed.

Oblivion = Yaay another ES! maybe they'll bring back some stuff from DF = Fast travel/Horse Riding = Really? = Meh = It was ok

Skyrim = They better bring back.... = Flash! = Laughable = Beth... I hate you!


I'll pick Skyrim up after I find it in a bargin bin years from now.

Did I say I hate Bethesda?

Grrrr



I'm sorry for you but selfishly havng also tried all the above games and feeling almost the opposite except I loved both Oblivion and Morrowind,I'm happy with Bethesda's directon. This old man is hyped like a teenager again for Skyrim.
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Wayne W
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:11 am

The only thing I felt moved TES somewhat away from being a RPG happened in Oblivion when player skill was made much more important.
Since if anything the perks you select for your character will be the most important factor and bring back a degree of character specialisation lacking in TES II-IV I'd argue Skyrim has moved slightly back towards being a traditional RPG than Oblivion was.
As for simple vs. complex thats irrelevant. PnP RPGs have always varied vastly in complexity. Systems like Tunnels and Trolls or Prince Valient at 1 end of the scale were very simple games. At the other extreme Chivalry and Sorcery made D&D look dumbed-down. I've managed to RP in all of them. Mechanics aren't as important as world/quest design which is what made MW a great game, not the mediocre mechanics.

edited because parts of it made no sense even if I knew what I meant :D
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RObert loVes MOmmy
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:32 pm

In fact, looking back at D&D, attributes aren't even neccessary if you use a robust-enough Feat+Skill system (Which Skyrim does). The only real change would be locking all attributes in the "Neutral" position. (d20 had 10 and 11 as "Neutral"), and removing any arbitrary attribute requirements on feats and/or items. On level up, in addition to choosing a feat (Your skills have increased automatically), you get to choose whether you want to increase your Hit Die for that level, your Magicka Point Pool, or Stamina (which doesn't usually appear as such in Tabletop games).


Ughh.. Comments like this make me cringe. By "locking all attributes in the neural system" you are making every person (of a single race) the same, without defining characteristics (i.e; no big strong guy with low reflexes/dexterity, no brainy/intelligent guy with poor leadership abilities/charisma). Basically, all of your heroes in your world have a 100 IQ, are six feet tall and weigh 200 pounds. Put a horned helmet on his head and now he's the Skyrim dude.

Attributes and skills are different. You can learn to be an expert swordsman, but your hit damage will always be somewhat effected by your strength, and your accuracy somewhat limited by your dexterity. In life, you are stuck with your genetics/your upbringing, and to some extent they can be overcome, but you learn to live with them. Just like you did when you rolled the 3d6 in the old D&D ruleset and got a 7 for intelligence and a 14 for strength and chose to become a fighter (not that many people really followed that rule to the T).
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Camden Unglesbee
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:27 pm

Daggerfall = My all time favorite game.... EVER!!!!

Morrowind = OMG A DAGGERFALL SEQUEL!!! .... wait a min.... ok it is forgivable = very much enjoyed.

Oblivion = Yaay another ES! maybe they'll bring back some stuff from DF = Fast travel/Horse Riding = Really? = Meh = It was ok

Skyrim = They better bring back.... = Flash! = Laughable = Beth... I hate you!

Interesting, because I like how they've been re-introducing features from Daggerfall ever since Morrowind. A more familiar fantasy setting, the Nine (Eight) Divines, shop schedules, "infinite" randomized quests, time- and weather-based music, lycanthropy, failable quests...

This on top of the incremental improvements: full NPC schedules, NPCs who could think and react for themselves*, NPCs who could use objects and move between cells on their own (ie, without being explicitly scripted to), dynamic lighting, farther draw distances, better sound, more fluid combat...

* Even if they're not the smartest, it's amazing to watch NPCs act based on their individual dispositions toward each other (further modified according to faction reps), while also taking into account their own aggression and responsibility levels, and react to other NPCs according to what they see and hear them do. A far cry from what Daggerfall and Morrowind could do.
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Jack
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:24 pm

Ughh.. Comments like this make me cringe. By "locking all attributes in the neural system" you are making every person (of a single race) the same, without defining characteristics (i.e; no big strong guy with low reflexes/dexterity, no brainy/intelligent guy with poor leadership abilities/charisma). Basically, all of your heroes in your world have a 100 IQ, are six feet tall and weigh 200 pounds. Put a horned helmet on his head and now he's the Skyrim dude.

Attributes and skills are different. You can learn to be an expert swordsman, but your hit damage will always be somewhat effected by your strength, and your accuracy somewhat limited by your dexterity. In life, you are stuck with your genetics/your upbringing, and to some extent they can be overcome, but you learn to live with them. Just like you did when you rolled the 3d6 in the old D&D ruleset and got a 7 for intelligence and a 14 for strength and chose to become a fighter (not that many people really followed that rule to the T).
I guess what you're saying could be considered "True", but it's also misleading. Also, you imply that all attributes balance, making Monks and Paladins cry.
First off: Attributes aren't distinct from skills to any meaningful degree. 75-90% of all skills are actually physical conditioning, ranging from Swordfighting to Computer Programming. However, in Real Life, there's a lot of Cross-training of skills not present in Skyrim.
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Chris Duncan
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:06 pm

I guess what you're saying could be considered "True", but it's also misleading. Also, you imply that all attributes balance, making Monks and Paladins cry.
First off: Attributes aren't distinct from skills to any meaningful degree. 75-90% of all skills are actually physical conditioning, ranging from Swordfighting to Computer Programming. However, in Real Life, there's a lot of Cross-training of skills not present in Skyrim.


Eh.. No, I don't agree with that statement at all. Skill is technique. Skill in swordfighting is technique and form, not raw strength or physical fitness. As you gain in skill, your technique improves and you learn more lethal moves, learn how to parry and expect what the enemies next move will be. Strength will add to the effectiveness of your skill, but is not required. Stamina will add to how long you can stay in a fight and not be winded, but doesn't effect your technique.
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SWagg KId
 
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Post » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:41 pm

I guess what you're saying could be considered "True", but it's also misleading. Also, you imply that all attributes balance, making Monks and Paladins cry.
First off: Attributes aren't distinct from skills to any meaningful degree. 75-90% of all skills are actually physical conditioning, ranging from Swordfighting to Computer Programming. However, in Real Life, there's a lot of Cross-training of skills not present in Skyrim.


What exactly does physical conditioning have to do with Computer Programming? I can see where it might help you type a bit faster (muscle memory, and all that), but the vast majority of programming skill is knowledge: recognizing the problem from past experience, and being able to draw from a larger set of "tools" to solve it. Being able to type blazingly fast doesn't do much good if you don't know what you're typing.

That same "muscle memory", along with strength and speed, helps with Swordfighting, so physical conditioning does do some good, but long hours of experience with different sparring partners and different styles will again give you an overwhelming advantage over someone who is merely "physically fit". Again, skill includes both knowledge and physical practice.

Levelling mods, such as GCD for Morrowind, and Kobu's for Oblivion, give small contributions toward multiple Attributes beside the "primary", so fighting with a sword or axe will provide some benefits to agility and/or endurance over enough use, and casting illusion spells will have a small effect on intelligence and wisdom, besides the primary boost to Personality. This was not done in ANY of the TES games in their plain vanilla form, but would have been a great way to fix the sorry "multiplier" nonsense that plagued the old titles, rather than canning Attributes altogether.
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Angus Poole
 
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