Ok, here it goes. Everyone knows how once the tribunal (Vives, Sotha sil, Almalexia) broke their oath to Nerevar not to use keening, sunder, and wraithgaurd azura appeared before them and cursed their race to ashen skin and red eyes. How is that true? I always thought the Daedra had no direct influence over nirn and its people..of course I have read about the mythic era and how they had some kind of power then..like how Molag Bal chose a mortal form and took a nordic female and did..well..things to her to bring into creation the first vampire (still not sure if thats true). Back to the topic..if the barriers between oblivion and nirn prevent them from having that control over the people then how exactly did azura do this? Could it have been something else? Say a side effect of using the tools..maybe azura decided to take the credit for herself? I was thinking about this and had no idea, so I thought id bring it here.

Daedra are quite influential. Just look at the orcs.

Though, the Chimer-Dunmer seem always to be the flag carriers, with Veloth being the Daedric homeboy.

Boethiah didn't change the orcs. The orcs changed to suit Malacath. Maybe the Dunmer did the same.

If thats the case then why dont the Dunmer have a hint of gold in them..or maybe thier upper body would be blue and the lower gold..why didnt they turn into hermaphrodites?

Well, I said influential. Power doesn't necessarily translate to direct action all the time. Take the Daedra out of the equation, and the orcs wouldn't have changed either way.

Malacath doesn't look like an orc, he looks like an obliterated, shamed knight and a tortured pariah. The tusks are just how the abstraction played out, and his nature is deeper than appearance. Should it be any surprise that the Red Mountain dragon break and eruption birthed a land and people who completely revolve around the axis mundi where the Tribunal ascended? It's all about the ash and the fire, and Vivec is honest enough to look the part, at least on on side of his face.


Edit: Hyamentar, you mean 'would,' don't you?

Azura, bunch of possible explanations:

1. The Daedra don't usually have direct influence but occasionally they do. Mehrunes for example can appear without much trouble when there is allot of destruction going on. (See: Aldudaga) So Azura as the embodiment of periods of change, would be able to exert her influence when the Chimer were about to worship new gods and become new people.

2. The barrier does not stop Azura as she knows the secret of by passing it (see Words of the Clan Mother).

3. There is indeed a story floating about somewhere describing how the Dunmer burned in the fire of the Heart. Sotha Sil tried to save them and became blackened, Vivec tried to safe Sotha and became half burned and Ayem stood and watched.

I don't know who wrote it or where it is, but it's interesting enough. The Tribunal might have fabricated the Story of Azura, although with real gods I doubt this ruse would last very long.

4. Daedra can be summoned. If Nerevar was killed during the ritual (with the poisoned robes, candles and incantations), she might just have come around around in time to smack the Tribunal.

First Vampire:

Tamriel also has it's popular fiction. Stories about Molag Ball mistreating fallen foes, woman and other figures that are in one way or another elevated, before turning them into a vampire are rather common.

Vampires themself however have a much closer association with Vearnima. They're living nightmares, living a nightmare, and only Vearnima provides the cure.

Just a picky.

Why so?

A certain throng of Aldmer were on a path to becoming pariahs regardless of Daedric meddling, you think?

Why would their change have to do with azura or even the tribunal..sure the tribunal ascended at red mountain..a giant volcano with ash and fire surrounding the area, but shouldnt they have stayed the same maybe..since the daedra arent the ancestors..that means they had nothing to do with creation right? Since the et'ada ( that right? ) are the ones who had to do with the creation and are the ancestors then shouldnt they be the ones in control of how the races look? Or since the tribunal ascended did it make them the ones who had complete control over the dunmer? Arent they still the same race even though they are "gods"..or do they really have that kind of power? To change the way their own race looks? If so why couldnt they just change them back?

Ok nevermind..proweler answered most of these, also thanks everyone! So many possibilities, puts my head in a spiral!

Well I mean they would have changed accordingly if Trinimac became Malacath in such a violent fashion. Not otherwise, of course.

I'm not saying it was it was an interior decorating choice. No one is in control of what mortals look like, any more than parents can reshape children at will. But your original post said 'side effect of the tools,' which is a succinct version of something like I suggested.

It's the only way the could have changed, really.

[quote name='LilMuleBoy' date='Jun 9 2008, 04:34 PM' post='12348533']
Why would their change have to do with azura or even the tribunal/quote]

She probably changed them out of spite. One of the books says that now their ashen skin and red eyes would remind everyone of ghouls.

Yea, I've seen that story creep up off and on over the years; I find it amusing that we still can't place it...

Isn't that just what the Tribunal says? I would take anything they say in the matter with a grain of salt. For all we know, the Tribunal could have changed the Chimer themselves (I mean, doesn't Sotha explain how it really is i blessing?) and then blamed Azura, so they would only be associated with the good parts of this "curse".

Oh, I found myself a http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/battle_redmountain.shtml!

The daedra are gods of change, though they can't create.
Also, it says somewhere that the Daedra like to corrupt anything that the Aedra have made, though it's arguable whether or not the man and mer were created by Aerda, or descended upon Aedra(They did descend upon Aerdra, but it's arguable whether that can be interpreted as the Aedra's creation or not)
Despite that, I'm sure the Daedra have just as much pleasure corrupting with the descendents of Aedra, too.

Just my thoughts

OK, there is more than one barrier up at a time. One of the most important barriers is made by Lorkhan's heart. That is why it was there, so the creators of the world didn't need to constantly pay attention to the world. When the Tribunal broke their oath, they used the heart and shook up the barrier. This allowed Azura to go through and do more than just talk to people. She was pissed and she cursed them all because she is a vengeful, petty [censored].

That's quicksand, and not that you're wrong, but why then only Azura? Would she have had a leg up in finding this out? Were the other daedra off their game that day? Like Vile says: "All our time is free time!".

Not sure. it's either a huge plot hole or other stuff happened. Or, it could be that Azura was actively watching that group because they swore by her and her free time is used being petty and vengeful.

Dagon of course had a leg up on the Oblivion crisis, but even without preparations the other princes could have been driving battalions of vermai and herne through their own gates and pursuing their interests.

Well since this topic is about race changes, I have a question about these things in general. Would it be possible for a very powerful mage (Think Psijics, Kagrenac, mortal S, and The founders of house Telvanni) to change his/her individual race? For example, let's say that there's an Orc who has become a legendary mage, but still is subject to unbearable levels of racial discrimination decides 'Screw this, I'm not going to be an Orc anymore' and tries to transform herself into a race of her own creation, would that be possible? Is it even possible to find out if this is possible?

I don't think that is possible.

Not because there is anything that limits it but because in a fantasy world, race is closer to culture then it is to appearance. The appearance can be changed -probebly quite trivially- but you can't change how your past created and influenced you.

Thanks prowler!

not sure if he could change his actual race (biological makeup, racial perks, etc.) but he can probably alter his appearance to be like that of another race. the archmage turned Cyrus into a goblin in Redguard, changing skin color is less substantial feat.

[edit] gah, didnt see the 2nd page :/

Whatever those interests may be. As far as we know Dagon is the only one who has a singular goal (not occupation, but goal) that involves permanent and drastic consequences for Nirn. That doesn't other Princes wouldn't have used the Crisis as opportunity, but Dagon stands out.

So does Molag Bal, not the destruction of NIRN, but it's occupation.

And it's possible that the other Princes helped Mehrunes Dagon's invasion force. That's the only way I can think to justify actual legions of Daedra (lizard-like guys) and Spider Daedra.

And I seem to remember Winged Twilight at Ald-Ruhn, against a people that their mistress may have a slight grudge against for a ... multiple reasons.