I think the UI is okayish. I can find most informations I need. Some menus could be extended (longer trade windows for example) but nothing too annoying. Of course many pipboy's menu could be merged, while some list could be splitted (AIDs -> chems / food) but it's minor.

The settlements building mode don't bother me too much, dunno why people think it's so bad.

The controls are insanely frustrating. Hardcoded keys shouldn't exist, there is no valid reasons it should.

Now here's my problem. A big [censored] problem that scream bad consoles port.

Limited in number of keys because HELLO CONTROLLERS!. Melee and throw grenades comes to mind...

But wait there's more.

In the Pipboy, you can right-click in the menu to zoom in/out your pipboy... right? Have you realized you cannot rightclick somewhere that a controller cannot have selected/be over it? http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/392173039788353438/B35F86117289525D52D266B78495F6AEF0B4399F/: on the section where you see stats of the selected items.. nope.. doesn't work

I can't use hotkeys(1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-0---=) to change weapons if I'm looking at a container (corpse) ? Is there any good reason to disable it? Or is it because controllers need this stick to navigate the container menu?

UI is okayish. PC Controls are limited to emulate controller buttons.

I'm not asking them to change the UI for PC, I'm asking Bethesda to not restrict PC controls to emulate controllers button.

Reminds me of Dragonage II.

Not in a good way.

There is literally no excuse for this utterly crappy and obnoxious UI. None whatsoever. They spent huge volumes of money on voice acting and other aspects of game development so why would they all of a sudden cringe at spending a significantly smaller sum on making a separate UI? Simply standardizing whether you have to hit Exit or Tab to leave a particular menu would help a lot and of course fixed hotkeys are just completely unnecessary.

Granted, THAT part was indeed bad, but I was talking about the tabs and being able to drop something from the menu to a table in world in general. I should have said they needed to progress from there, rather than that there was nothing wrong with it. Adding the list view within the menu instead of boxes would have worked, switching the paperdoll to a 3d render of your character, allowing to dump items from menu to a container.

I for one love that you can loot real time, but the control mapping is very much a point of contention for me.

as for the menus... maybe that pip-boy app has it's uses after all.

Bethesda are an inherently lazy developer who rely on the modding community to pick up the slack for the PC development. Just wait for the inevitable mod. I'm sure the SkyUI team will work on Fallout 4's horrid UI.

And this is an design against usability issue. Note that Microsoft could probably Bethesda with the money they lost on the windows 8 cluster [censored].

Said they should let the ESO team do the pc interface. Simply as in a game you can not pause, an fail interface is a failed game.

BINGO perfectly stated in a calm manor that I dont posess

Really doesn't matter as we know the modders will end up fixing it.

At least that's the only consolation we have, an option...

I do not like the grid setup in Morrowind, it works nice in ESO as it don't use weight.

With weight an table with column sort works best.

Still to an defense of the fallout 4 UI, the pc issue is keybindings who is a mess. I guess building and interacting with followers don't work better on consoles.

You always have to tell dogmeat to wait before you can access his inventory. Now you either need to remember to change this to follow or his position

Mouse in menus in Skyrim was totally broken. Very easy to select the wrong answer in dialogues.

the main thing i want is a seperate grenade key and a seperate melee key

Gods I hope so.

I would love to see the heads on the "Master Race" explode. Every last one of 'em.

Have no fear the modding community will make FO4 better *missing superman emoji with cape blowing in the breeze*

I understand all of you saying it's about money. It always is. But what about money are we talking about here?

Would they spend so much more time/money if they wanted to develop a better UI (not new one, just better). Yes, they would. But considering the cost of the game, few extra thousands would not bankrupt the house.

Would they earn less if they had two separate, bat similar UIs? No, they would earn more. One has to wonder if pirated version, which is almost as popular as original one, would have less support, if original was not so badly designed when it comes to certain basic principles of gaming.

So, what we have here is a case where the current solution didn't bring any extra cost in development, but is costing them money now.

Another thing is pride. Don't those that were working on UI have any? Because I seriously doubt the Fallout 4 UI designers are walking around, thumping their chests and proudly announcing "I made that!". And Fallout games are games that should make developers do just that. It's Fallout!

Well said.

I am actually at a point where I laugh at absurdity of me trying to focus my companion while she is fidgeting and moving around, so I can tell her to stop and then I have to focus her again in order to even get an option to tell her to trade with me. Sometimes I have to focus her chest region before I get an option to choose, other times it's above her right shoulder or left one. Like I said, it's so absurdly bad, it becomes laughable at times.

I'd like to point out that although I do "understand" this, it really does express, for the lack of a better term, laziness. There is no reason that they could not have specialized developments (for certain aspects, not the entire build) based on platform. This does not add 'significantly' more work as it is anyway.

I'm not going to say "they shouldn't make PC an after thought" "we deserve better", etc etc. But I will say, it is sad that it's like that. I feel like the elder who's been tossed aside by the new generation, even though I've tought them everything they know about their current art/practice.

Please don't misunderstand me when I say this. It's not a reflection on you persronally, but rather a commentary on the wider issue that your statement represents. The notion of "at least we can fix it with mods", is one I believe that works against PC players as a whole. We should not have to rely on the community for this. I think it's amazing that the community is able to and willing, but the principle of that matter is that it should not come to that at all. By the same principle, you do not buy a car that is not roadworthy in your country even though it is another, and then justify it by saying, "at least our mechanics can bring it up to scratch".

We are 'lucky' that we have such talented people... but game companies, Bethesda included, should never be absolved of their poor design choices because other people who are not affiliated with them, will fix an issue they are capable of fixing themselves. If a community of modders can do it, why don't Bethesda? Why don't they release 'official mods' that are "alternate design choices"? Interface, control, gameplay, visual, mechanical, story, anything (if they don't make the relevant design choice in the first place, for whatever console reason that might be)?

Just a thought.

Yes, I completely agree. It's really strange that a company can make blockbuster sales with their last game (~20 million units sold for Skyrim), and continue to struggle establishing a budget for a team of UI/UX designers - this career path didn't emerge in the last decade for nothing, after all.

So, where is this money going? It's certainlu not being invested into improving the QOL for PC players, that's for sure.

Some games get far too crowded with their UI. So you can barely see the action. Of course, it also causes the game to become more complicated. The main advantage to minimalist UI is immersion. Of course with minimalist UI there is the problem of remembering which ability is mapped to which button or using an ability wheel.

Eh, honestly I haven't had that much trouble with the UI. Yes, there are some minor annoyances & quirks (like not being able to hotkey between sections of the pip-boy. which is odd because you could in FO3.)

A big part of that is because I've never really done much key rebinding in any games, so that's one big issue that just passes me by. All the other stuff is minor, really.

And some of it isn't "OMG, evil consoles invading my PC", but rather due to design decisions they made..... like hotkeys not working when you're moused over a container. That's an effect of their "hey! let's make more stuff live! like conversations, or looting corpses!" - which I don't think was a "console UI" thing, but a "we have a bright idea!" thing that just wasn't quite as cool as it sounded.

So, yeah. Some minor annoyances, but nothing that makes me want to punch the screen.

Oh god yes. And don't forget "hold breath" also on the same key. Who thought that it would be a good idea to bind three different actions to the same key and then make them non-mappable? *genius*

The number of times I've instinctively "held my breath" while going into sniper-zooom-mode, only to throw a grenade.

Or want to throw a grenade, and instead swing my gun.

Or want to swing my gun, and throw a grenade.

What the living sweet mercy of userability design is that?

Actually you can, the keys are just all over the keyboard instead of the handy F1 to F3 keys in the previous game.

M was for map screen, and...

I love the live looting to be honest, that was a great decision. Like you said, nothing really to do with consoles (probably), just a great design decision.

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TLDR: I wrote a lot... I don't really expect many people to read the full thing: Culture of gaming isn't what it used to be, "future of PC ui" (I refer to as 'accessibility') is a symptom of the casual gamer. Nothing wrong with being a casual gamer. But that's where the money is so that's where the developers go. Although I do understand the financial principles and don't expect charity from developers, it doesn't make it any less unfortunate. This can be seen in things outside of computer/console gaming too and isn't an issue for any single developer.

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Of course there are other design choices which were not as good either. Limit of 4 dialogue options... well that's not true, they're not really options are they? "Yes, No, Sarcastic, MoreInfo".. That's not RPing, sorry. That was a 'step backward', but why? Personally, I can't help but think it was an "accessibility" thing, not for consoles specifically, but for players who don't have the time, patience or care to read through more than that many dialogue options or invest into actual, proper RPing. I think that has a lot to do with the "pc ui future": it's a symptom of the target audience (specifically console culture* of time-limited and casual play) and moving as many sales as possible. Which although I understand, does not mean I can respect.

( * I'm not blaming consoles specifically, I'm pointing out that the culture of casual play which is limited by time etc, is the issue, which can most easily be identified with console game playstyles. The opposite would be the 'serious gamer' PC player, who usually is able to dedicate vastly more time to get into a game that may have a steeper learning curve. Why aren't there RTS games on console? Nothing to do with controls REALLY, they have USB input and support both k/b and mouse. It's because the 'style' of games/play on consoles is more like that of arcades back in the day, just more advanced. Get on, play for 30-90 minutes, get off. This isn't a hard and fast rule, but a generalisation that I would consider 'fair'.)

As a PC and Console gamer, I can also say that this obviously has exceptions. I mean of course it has to. There are plenty of 'casual' throw-away games on PC, and plenty of "serious" games on console. But the 'trend' is undeniable. Generally speaking, you'll see PC players dedicate 6+ hours to their game in 1 sitting, compared to console players. That's fine and all... not saying either should play like the other! But it does help you see why games, UI, design decisions are the way they are some times. Companies have to 'fit this mold' to make those sales, and unfortunately they don't invest for the PC gamer crowd. Imagine how complex, detailed and advanced a game like Fallout they could make if they did not worry about making sales, hardware limitations, and so on.

They could make a grand adventure with a significantly 'live' worlds, 8-14 choices of dialogue for every conversation, full of detailed and unique NPC's for the entire game world, vast maps and content and synergy, and all that jazz. They're talented and they could do it. But who's going to buy that game? In theory it sounds amazing and in practice it might be, BUT ONLY for those who had the time to spare to invest in it, to absorb it and make the most of the content offered, as opposed to glazed over.

The 'sad' (I suppose) truth is that the people who buy the largest number of games don't have time to spend the first 2-3 hours just sorting out their character that they're going to RP (Think pen and paper D&D sessions if you've every played), let alone absord all the detail that would follow. The reality is, most people will hit the "auto do everything button, I want to get in and shoot some mutants". The unfortunate thing is that all that hard work and detail would then go to waste on (probably, hopefully I'm wrong) the majority of players who would simply skip over most of the content anyway, complain it's "too hard", or be annoyed that there's no single "right" way to complete the game 100%. So then really what's Bethesda's (or any companies) motivation to make exceptional design choices as opposed to those that, such as the example of the UI, are 'accessible'?

So in that regard I don't "blame" Bethesda (or any other company really), but that does not mean that I don't want them to do more for those of us who can spare 6-12 hours on a sat/sun to immerse into a 'proper', full fledged Fallout 4, Elder Scrolls, "game x". This can't happen though with 'accessible' ui and with run/gun, 30-90 minute playstyles. These UI and game design choices are reflective of the style of games created. As people have pointed out from other threads, for example the feeling is more that Fallout 4 has become a "shooter with RPG elements" as opposed to the opposite. This makes sense given the dialogue choices, the keybinding options, and other things. But like I mentioned, all these UI choices and their future, is just a symptom of the casual gamer. Nothing wrong with casual games! The thing that's missing is a proportionate number of non-casual games of the same genre. These choices allow people to 'get into' the game faster, allows them to draw more players and from a business perspective makes more sense. It's only too obvious that they would choose only 4 'dialogue options' given the d-pad controller option that's immediately available. If the d-pad had 6 buttons we might see 6 dialogue choices in Fallout 4...

Imagine how many people would be put off if you didn't get a serious combat opportunity in the first thorough 10 hours of game play. That kind of sounds ridiculous doesn't it? I don't think it does all that much. But when you compare the primary market of players, yeah it does. Not intended as a negative stereotype, but where's the competition when there's 20 other CoD and equivalents that they can load up and be shooting it up in a matter of seconds.

Gone are the days of Fallout 1+2, tactics games, Morrowind, Deus Ex, Infinity Engine. We'll get close once in a while, and there might be a true gem pop out unexpectedly. But I think the trend is clear.

hahaha I can imagine all the 12 year olds losing their s* if they saw 8-14 lines of dialogue options, or having to read an in game book to solve a quest puzzle, hahaha! "OMG wtf is this, gotta read?! just mash A/X go go, shoot something".

*eye-roll* sigh, lol.

I feel this way because games are types of entertainment that I view in the same light as reading a book or watching a movie or a TV series. Some people watch 1 or 2 episodes of a show, others sith through a marathon of seasons. Casual vs. 'serious'. I, perhaps to my detriment, am more of the latter. I invest the time to read through in game lore books, walk/jog instead of sprint, avoid the use of mounts/fast travel, and so on. I look for all the detail and hints. So when design and UI choices are made with 'accessibility' in mind, especially when I'm playing the game on a PC, it irks me. It irks me because I feel like I'm losing out on amazing source of entertainment because of the casual gamer. I don't hate or blame the casual gamer. Sometimes I am one as well. What I hate is when a game is released in it's 'accessible' state, that's it... there's not going to be a 'less accessible' or non-casual version of it.

I'm jealous that the target audience is the casual gamer, and not me. The dedicated, time available, role-playing gamer.

I challenge you Bethesda. Do an exclusive. Make one PC exclusive title for Fallout or Elder Scrolls (or a similar new IP), without the casual gamer or console limitations in your mind. Aim for the sky and give us the best you can.

Maybe one day. I won't hold my breath.

Yeah... you know, to be honest I didn't even try to play this game with my mouse and keyboard. After Skyrim and Fallout 3, as soon as I loaded up Fallout 4 for the first time I just went ahead and plugged in a controller from the get-go.

LOL!

Amazing haha!

On the plus side, the benefit of a controller is anolog movement. Since I play in third-person a lot there's at least a bit of an upshoot, as that tends to work better.

Dishonored had a decent UI and FOV slider.

Most other developers tell PC gamers to get stuffed.

Throwing grenades is a total crapshoot. Making my character a moron. As if the dialogue system didn't already do that on a regular basis.

They should just hire Darn (DarnUI) for a couple of weeks before the game hits gold and let him do his magic.