I agree. We haven't seen what it looks like in Legion territory, we've only heard a bit about it and can assume. Apparently though it's extremely safe :hubbahubba:

Anyways I'm pretty sure Caeser BASED his legion off the roman one but didn't take the entire thing "action by action" if you will. He just took things he liked about them, things that would help him achieve his goal better and to have a sturdier empire to rule over.

You might want to do some research into governments and political science. A republic is a form of democracy. A true democracy, popularized by the Greeks, is where every single citizen has a vote on laws and politics. A republic is where a representative from each population is elected to vote. Most democracies (as they are called today) are republics. This includes America. That's why you say "and to the republic for which it stands" during the pledge of allegence.

Nope, they have a democratic system, taxes, infastructure, organization, buisiness and they start wars in foriegn countries, they are pretty damn accurate. They didn't cherry pick, unlike CL. They are trying to regain what was lost.

So unless you have something to back up your statement we have nothing more to discuss.

Oh and if your response was an attempt to troll me than please take a toothpick, wedge it under your big toe-nail and kick a wall really hard.

Both are duplicating old failed governments, NCR just has the better chance if smart people get elected. What are you smoking?

Also, that extraordinary people bit about Caesar now makes me want to put a golf club through his skull like you do to Andrew Ryan in Bioshock.

Without getting too political, I would definately agree the profligates mirror the corrupt side of American government.

And CL reflects the brutality and savagry of what was considered one of the most advanced ancient societies. At least NCR reflects some of the good points of the American Government.

Brutal means, for a brutal world.

How else would they have been able to tame almost 4 states in just 3 decades? By filling paperwork?

Precisely. In New Vegas, the ways of the Old World have failed and trying to re-start the same thing that caused the war, is just dumb. They need a new kind of leadership. One without corruption and lax morals.

See, that's exactly it. Most people get caught up in comparing real world values and morals to Fallout's world and don't even bother to look at it from the viewpoint of someone living in that environment. Would you want the promise of a rebuilt America riddled with corruption and excess, just as it was before the bombs dropped (which is stupid because it would just mean another nuclear war down the line) or complete and utter security reinforced by a strong (albeit rigid) moral code.

Caesar's path to a new Roman Empire isn't a pretty one littered with cheering fans and what have you but it's better than walking down the same exact path that lead to a global nuclear catastrophe. Caesar conquers New Vegas, makes it his Rome and turns the Legion into a standing professional army. An army he can use to utterly eradicate every last bit of raider/fiend/mutant scum that he wishes and more importantly, an army he can use to protect citizens of his new empire.

One critical thing I'd have to say is about his means of expanding said empire, however. Rather than the whole capture tribals, erase their identity shtick he'd be better off offering citizenship through mandatory military service. This would serve to imbed potential citizens with a sense of loyalty and duty without actually having to brainwash them by having served alongside professional legionaries for an extended period of time. By the time their mandatory service is up they can become full fledged citizens, therein retaining all the rights a citizen would have. Of course they'd still be required to serve when called upon but they'd be given a real stake in the Legion.

Basically he'd be taking an army of slaves and turning it into an army of modernized Romans. Caesar would've been better of following history a bit more closely is the jist of what I'm trying to say.

Quoth Edward Sallow himself:

"It means a nationalist, imperialist, totalitarian, homogeneous culture that obliterates the identity of every group it conquers. Long term stability at all costs. The individual has no value beyond his utility to the state, whether as an instrument of war or production."

I'm really not seeing room for anything beyond legionnaires or slaves in that...

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2562/womenstayinthekitchen.jpg

Siri also says that a female player char is the first free woman she's seen since she was captured. And also, she states that several legionnaires are contemplating attempting to (sixually Violative R-Word That Is Censored On This Board) a female player char.




And now for some more brutal deconstruction of the Pro-Legion stance...

Whose moral code? Someone who is A-OK with sixual violation, brutal torture, and homophobia (despite mounting evidence that the head enforcer himself may very well be in a very well-armored closet?) Someone who was a petulant gloryhound as a kid? What good is this moral code if the man at the top who decreed it considers himself exempt from it?

You're, right, it's not one that walks down a path that led to nuclear destruction. It's walking the path backwards to a societally regressed state. The Legion is just as morally bereft as the "Profligates" they decry, but in a more baser and animalistic nature, with the afforementioned (sixually Violative R-Word That Is Censored On This Board) and torture.

As for the "citizenship" thing and not annihilating tribes... that defeats the whole point of Sallow's vision: "Long term stability at all costs". If regionalism still exists, favor towards one's own region will remain and strife between regions will return. Not that it can be removed... regionalism will just resurface again in whatever new reformation of the territories come forth. Denver will favor themselves over Phoenix, for example. Like Marcus says, "Caesar" thinks he can change human nature. And when the Legion falls apart after the man who is worshiped instead of his ideals (thanks to breeding out intellectual capacities as the sixism-parroting Lucullus demonstrates) dies... it'll be biblical.

It is ! :yes:

I'd like to see exactly how the Legion will innovate since the average Legionnaire is browbeaten by training to obey the will of "Caesar" at all times and the average slave is more concerned with doing what they're told to avoid a savage beating. When there are few free minds, there will be few advancements begat by them.

That's the problem with dictatorships: the same minds that create innovations are also a threat to the dictator's power base, because they potentially ask inconvenient and uncomfortable questions; they potentially can think differently than how the dictator wants them to. This is what happened with the Soviet Union under Stalin. This is probably one of the true ulterior motivations behind Joshua Graham getting more than just a beheading or crucifixion for failure. I can only imagine what would happen to Lanius if you talk him down and Sallow's still alive...

Curious, how exactly did you make the connection from a few random legionaries apparently wanting to force themselves upon a woman to every individual in the Legion, Caesar included being A-OK with it? Are ya' under the impression Caesar and the rest of the higher-ups are omniscient and therefore not only know everything the legionaries below them are doing, but in fact support it?

But hey, at least those glorious NCR chaps are absolutely incapable of forcing themselves upon a woman. I mean, their supposed to represent 'Merica in the game, so its impossible! And homophobia, let's get onto that one. The NCR is in fact quite homophobic if you've ever spoken to Major Knight with the Confirmed Bachelor perk. Poor dude has to hide who he is for fear of persecution so I would assume the NCR is even more backwards in that respect.

Sorry, was I talking about the NCR? No.

Seeing how endemic Siri says it is... yes, I do make the connection.

I'll entertain your red herring for a moment, though, only because I can add that to the deconstruction pile. Let's take a look at a certain Westside character: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Jimmy_%28Fallout:_New_Vegas%29. He was a Legion slave, who was picked out to be an Armored Closet Gay (only way to be in the Legion if you wanna live) centurion to be his "helper". When things were dangerously close to the Centurion's preferences, the plume-head took Jimmy out to nowhere and nearly executed him if Jimmy didn't plant a foot in his executioner's crotch first.

Major Knight would endure some bigoted comments if his preferences were made public, but it would be unlawful for anyone to act upon him based on that bigotry. However, in the Legion, homosixuality is punished by execution.

Nope. Point I was trying to make was that the faction fitting the "good" archetype has some pretty heinous skeletons in it's closet as well, but it's quite a bit easier to go after the Legion so I get why you went that route.

That does not change the fact that it's a red herring. And a common one when the motivations and modus operandi of the Legion are criticized.

You really got some anger issues you might wanna check up on.

Really? 'Cause what I gleaned from it was that no faction in the game is a pillar of righteousness with exclusion of some of the smaller ones. To me it indicates that Obsidian started to make everything a bit more "grey" in terms of each factions motivations/beliefs yet stopped halfway and decided to paint the Legion as the oh-so typical bad guys with little to no redeemable qualities.

Yeah. And in this topic, we're discussing the Legion, not the NCR. In the context of this topic, throwing that bit out about the NCR fits the description of a logical fallacy typically known as a "red herring".

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1209973-motivations-of-the-ncr/

Precisely, and in discussing the Legion I've pointed out that each of the major factions has some 'splainin to do in terms of what they've done/what they believe. I'm not sure how I can make that any clearer. And again, we can compare the morals of a modern, real society to the fictional (again FICTIONAL) faction Caesar's Legion all day and still arrive at the same conclusion. Now, if the Legion was a real entity that existed in the REAL world, I'd hate them for what they believe. Just about everyone in their right mind would. 'Cept they live in the world of Fallout where all kinds of sick and depraved stuff goes on.

But hey, you'll probably ignore this, re-iterate that this is a topic about Caesar's Legion and repost a link to an NCR discussion topic, so it seems pointless to even try. Just try to remember:

Fictional world of Fallout where a nuclear war as changed the dynamics of morality dramatically=/=Real world where all the naughty stuff they do and believe is, in fact, wrong.

Be sure to introspect on the topic of ignorance; I'll do exactly what you say I'll do because it didn't stick. I am well aware of the imperfection of all sides. This topic discusses those of the Legion.

And I've already provided a link to the other topic. Which, I may add... has been derailed onto a topic about Caesar and comparisons to Hitler and Stalin. Case in point.

Aw, I get it. You're going to call me ignorant in a roundabout way then completely side step my point. Welp, I'm not in the business of trying to convey logic to a brick wall, so let's call it a day.

Sic semper erat, et sic semper erit

True enough. Shame as I enjoy a little back and forth particularly when taking the roll of devil's advocate.