This is pretty much the only information available about the enigmatic people of Ka Po' Tun, and I don't know about the rest of you, but i've always viewed them as pretty similar to the Khajiit. However, after some thought on the subject, I've come to the conclusion that this interpretation is wrong.

I'll start with the dragons. Tamriel is a European-influenced land, so naturally they have European dragons. However, the dragons originated in Akavir, an Asian-influenced continent. Why would the dragons there look like Akatosh and Peryite? Instead, Akaviri dragons would look a little something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_dragon.

Then there's the Ka Po' Tun themselves. If you read the http://www.imperial-library.info/pge3/other_lands.shtml, you might notice references to canine pirates, who were among the first of the Akaviri races to make contact with Tamriel.

"But Jara!" you say, "as handsome as you are, you're mistaken! The Ka Po' Tun are feline, not canine!"
Ah, but that's where you're wrong! Please keep in mind that no Tamrielic citizen has ever (supposedly) seen a Ka Po' Tun with their own eyes, merely relying on stories by the Tsaesci. Think, what IRL looks canine to a westerner, but is actually feline? I present... the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_lion
Now, the actual Ka Po' Tun are clearly tiger-like, as their leader, Tosh Raka is said to be orange with black stripes, but other than http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Arcanine_(Pok%C3%A9mon), what's there to say that they don't actually have features more like a Fu Lion? They don't look like any big cat i've ever seen, but they DO look somewhat dog-like.

Another thing to consider, if you've been reading the articles i've linked to, is that both Chinese artistic depictions of lions and dragons are actually rather similar. The Ka Po' Tun are said to be trying to become dragons, but what if they're already distantly related to the Akaviri dragons? It would explain the (theoretically) similar features, and why they even want to become dragons in the first place!

Plus, this case of convergent evolution is a lot more satisfying (to me, at least) than having two races (the Ka Po' Tun and Khajiit) looking basically the same. Humans and Elves I can get, but there's no real reason for two strains of Khajiit developing on opposite ends of Nirn- ignoring the Lilmothiit for now, who at least lived near Elsweyr.

Why can't there be two khajiit species living in other parts of the world? You say calling them feline is wrong, but if I read right you made an arguement for them being feline quite clearly.

They're feline. The Tsaesci call them feline. Fu Lions are feline and the Chinese obviously call them feline, but to a foreigner, they happen to look canine.

And I say they're not related to Khajiit because of their origins- either descended from desert cats or made by Azura, neither leaves room for them to have evolved elsewhere (if you'll excuse the pun) in the world, and then travelled to Elsweyr. There's no record of a Khajiit exodus either, so they couldn't have developed in Elsweyr and then left for Akavir.

Meh.

Please, by all means share your own thoughts! If my idea is so uninteresting, your theory must be mind-blowing.

No, trying to become dragons because they're descended from dragons...kinda interesting. But, the evolutionary mundane aspect that somehow I'm feeling out of your theory I can do without because it's not relevant. Do you ever get the feeling what being a dragon means?

Yeah, I can see how you could get that impression, i'm a bit of a science junkie.

That's pretty cool stuff you wrote. Defenetely not worse than other theories posted here.

Where was it referenced that dragons originated in Akavir?

http://www.imperial-library.info/akavir/index.shtml#others http://www.imperial-library.info/pge3/other_lands.shtml http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/mysterious_akavir.shtml.

None of those actually suggest that dragons originated in Akavir. Not that it matters much, though. As Mariel already pointed out, there is a certain meaning to 'becoming a dragon' and especially to Tosh Raka being the first to do so.

Well, these Pocket Guide says "Akavir's most deadly and beautiful former native child. The very name 'Akavir,' in fact, means 'Dragon Land.' "

"Native" to me, suggests, well, "native".

Care to tell me what this hidden meaning is, exactly? I get the impression that it's no coincidence "Tosh Raka" sounds like "Akatosh", so I dunno if that's what you guys are going for, but I fail to see how a race (theoretically) descended from dragons cannot wish to become dragons, or by the looks of things, dragon-like gods.

I wish they had better names.

Po Tun just sounds silly.

If that was the case, doesn't that actually argue against the whole western/eastern dragon dichotomy anyway? Or are we going to play slippery slope hypotheticals again and say they changed when they came to the west.

I'm not sure I follow the point of this whole argument. The tigers are actually dragons who look like canines because the Chinese had lions that vaguely looked like dragons but weren't. There's a whole heap of glaring logical leaps in there that I'm not going to bother pointing out. And besides, the khajiit did it simply enough with "[Alkosh] is depicted as a fearsome dragon, a creature the Khajiit say 'is just a real big cat'." without fart-arsing about with absurd meta-logic.



You missed the whole thing where legendary heroes seem to be constantly imitating Akatosh and Lorkhan? Most recently, I pointed it out http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=883142&view=findpost&p=12907179.

Yes, we're going to play slippery slope. I know Nirn is a place of magic and wonder, but the basic laws of nature still seem to apply. Evolution exists- if you believe the Imperial scholars, it works just like Earth, but there's definitely some divine intervention involved in most cases. Azura, mostly.

Really, think about it. Why would an Asian setting use European mythology? It's absurd. The logical answer is that dragons started off like the Asian dragons, but when they migrated to Tamriel, became more European in appearance. It's not that far-fetched, really.

And yeah, I figured out the Akatosh/Lorkhan thing, thanks. But this isn't just one hero, it's an entire nation who's trying to become Akatosh-like. There has to be more to it in this case.

It's not "absurd" it's good writing. Not one entity in TES is based on just one source, nor should they be. To get well developed people and places you have to draw from more than one idea and meld them together to create something different. You can't just say Akavir is Asia and Tamriel is Europe and think everything is going to fall in place for you. Case in point, wasabi eating Nords.


You still aren't getting it, it's more than just trying to be Akatosh-like it's a move towards the original AE. This IS something that entire nations have attempted before, ask Kagrenac.

Akaviri cultural contamination.




What?



As has already been mentioned, stereotyping a setting is bad.

So the problem with your argument is that you make the assumption that Akaviri dragon are Asian and then to explain why they don't look Asian you assume that they have changed. There is however no need for this assumption other then to keep your initial assumption.

edit:

Also European Dragons have four feet and two wings, Chinese Dragons have four feet and no wings and http://www.imperial-library.info/tsorg/part11.shtml, Akatosh and Peryte all have two feet and two wings.

edit:

Further more we have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindworm.



Indeed.

Compare:



To:

You guys gonna go on about this like that dreaded Dwemer thread?

Wasabi eating Nords? It seems albides made a meme.

Personally don't see the attraction in such an idea.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/thumb/4/42/Smaug.jpg/300px-Smaug.jpg

Also Known As The Old Smaug Himself

What has that got to do with anything?

But... Vampiric Samurai-Ninja (Mutant) Snakes!
:meh:


One could also add Wyverns, I guess, as they are depicted as "birdlike" almost as often as they are "snakelike" (when they're just lindorms with a different name, it seems).


So the "Ka Po'Tun" are the elves of Akavir? I didn't realise! That makes the whole "Tsaesci being men" stuff a lot more clearer, as it makes them men "metaphysically", but not necessarily in the flesh. I can finally take a "grounded" stand in the question!

Anyway, just so I understand things right.. The whole "trying to become the Dragons" is the same thing as the Altmer are doing when they try to breed themselves back into Aldmer, right?

Call it a precedence for the portrayal of dragons as feline creatures. (although, personally I've always thought the animators made smaug look more fox-like than anything.)

Well, technically, MK made the meme... and the attraction? I certainly find Nords chomping on wasabi-laced shields to counter-act (in vain) the effects of that Whale snow a humorous and appealing image...

I mean c'mon, big hairy men trying to make themselves angry while inevitably turning into giggling school-children. What's not to like?

EDIT: too many damn "Well,"s. I gotta pay more attention while I'm writing.

Ahh, I seem to have missed it. Probably in '06.

Uh, why are they eating it, then?