[Clea Jamerson]

I disagree with this 100%.

First, in my opinion it is pretentious to use the word 'devs', in this context. Bioware are devs. Bethesda are devs. We are modders. We already have enough inflated egos in the modding community without this 'I'm a dev' attitude.

Second, and I'll probably just quit with this one, this is Bethesda Softworks' official forum for Oblivion mods. Modders (or 'devs', as you like to call them) already have one forum designed especially for them: the Oblivion Construction Set forum. I don't believe they need two forums all to themselves while telling new players to go somewhere else with their unimportant questions.

As far as I'm concerned telling new players to leave Bethesda's official forums and go somewhere else is repellent. Speaking for myself, I don't want to post in several forums just because a self-important clique of so-called wanna-be 'devs' think this space is too important and sacrosanct for a new player to waste valuable space and time asking for opinions about which mod to use. If that's the attitude around here, then I'm leaving.

I have posted lists of my favorite mods for eight years. I have lost track of how many times new players have PMed me to thank me for doing this. We should be nurturing new players. And Bethesda's own forums should be the first place we try to nurture them. We should not be sending them away to fan-run sites, we should be trying to keep them here. We should be treating them with respect.

I'm using dev in the loosest possible sense, as one who creates, as opposed to one who uses. I'm also using dev instead of modder because it's three characters shorter to type. I'm not saying that we're superior, or that our work is even original. I'm certainly not one with an inflated ego, and I see very few such cases. Modding is not serious business, I am well aware. I've never made anything original, everything I've worked on is of the creation of others, so I've got nothing to be egotistical about.

I also specifically stated that I'm not trying to be elitist, and that I don't think it's right to turn newbies away from the board. I simply stated reasons as to why there is less general discussion on this board. I also never said this is the dev board, I said 'for' in quotation marks because it's not really, but it's where the focus lies more readily.

I agree that newbies are very important, it's foolish to think otherwise, and I was never suggesting that that is not the case.

I'm sorry that what I wrote came across wrong, it was pretty much the opposite of the intended message.

EDIT: Your last paragraph seems directed towards my comment that I don't post in 'best mod?' threads. I don't because I feel that there are plenty of past replies already, and any contributions I could make would not do justice to all the great mods out there. I'm not suggesting that this is the 'right' way to do things, or that others should do the same. Your contributions to these threads is something I'm well aware of, and I'm grateful that there are people such as you to do what you do.

To further clarify on my reasons for suggesting that Nexus is a 'better' environment for the average user to seek such info:

1. Nexus is the main download site for mods. As such, it is frequently the only site known to users. It has forums dedicated to it, where said users will talk.
2. Nexus has more mod pages than this forum has RELZ threads. Greater variety will allow greater comparison, leading to a more thorough 'best mods' list than here. In a perfect world.

It's got nothing to do with disrespecting newbies or discouraging them, it just makes more sense.

[Tania Bunic]

We should not be sending them away to fan-run sites, we should be trying to keep them here. We should be treating them with respect.

Sorry but as a person who runs a 'fan run site' I have to disagree.......a lot. I created that site (ORE) specifically to help people find mods and I put a heck o' lot of my free time into it. That site is specifically there to enable people (newbies especially) to find the mods that suit them.

It serves a purpose, as do the multiple lists and other sites of the same kind created by others who have dedicated their time to helping people find the right mods for them. If newbies cannot take the time to amble through these sites and find something they like.....if they are not willing to put in the time even to use the sites specifically created for them....well then we are all wasting our time.

People have brought up very valid points and the number one is that these 'best mod' threads are rampant to the point where they are spam, and they are. They push down the important threads and answering the same question over and over again....when those answers are already provided, over and over again......is wearing. People have every right to get angry and frustrated. It is not rocket science, all people need to do is read the stickies, look at the fan provided lists and their answers are there. There just is no need for multiple threads asking the same question over and over.

This forum is about mods and mod development and in that respect this forum is created around 'devs', nothing elitist about it...more of a fact. Not one person here is not for supporting and assisting newbies, hence the numerous threads and sites geared towards that. What we are against is unnecessary spam, born out of sheer laziness.

The best thing we can do to combat it is when one of these 'best mods' threads comes up, just post a link to the 'List of Lists' and leave it at that. The author of that didn't put it together for their health, they put it together to help new people and we should utilize it. Both us and the 'newbies' will benefit.

[Stryke Force]

1. ORE and other fan sites: While this forum is homebase for me, I have gotten great use of ORE as well, and other sites. No reason not to refer people. They'll be back here, too, since this is the forum with the widest representation of types of mods.

2. Spam: While I agree that the rampant amount of "best" threads is annoying and has all the downsides mentioned, I just don't see how to avoid it. Most, if not all, of those posters are new. So, warning them or directing them to the stickies may help them, but it does nothing to deter future posters.

There's just no way to catch people before they post those threads. All responses are after the fact. Even if every such thread was answered with only one copy/paste reply directing them to appropriate places, we would still have the same number of new "best" threads being created. :shrug:

gothemasticator

[Rachael]

If there could be some sort of central recommendations thread so that people can still ask this question, without being referred to possibly outdated threads, that would be great. If it worked. Which it probably doesn't, it would be a mess most likely. And a pain for the moderators to lock/merge the threads that are still posted anyway.

I was thinking along this line too. What about a central thread named "Wat are the BEST MODS? We can't tell you, but... check out our load orders!" It would not be open for discussion; instead every regular here would be assigned 1 single post where he/she can show his/her current load order and can update that as they want. If they haven't edited it in 6 months their post would be purged to make room for someone else. I think it might work if such a thread is stickied AND if every new mod user's query is always pointed to that thread and then closed. Thus there is no need to argue about what is "best" or not. The lists reflect what mods are currently most widely used, and can even inform the smart reader about load orders and possible mod combinations.
Just my 2c.

[Sheila Reyes]

I was thinking along this line too. What about a central thread named "Wat are the BEST MODS? We can't tell you, but... check out our load orders!" It would not be open for discussion; instead every regular here would be assigned 1 single post where he/she can show his/her current load order and can update that as they want. If they haven't edited it in 6 months their post would be purged to make room for someone else. I think it might work if such a thread is stickied AND if every new mod user's query is always pointed to that thread and then closed. Thus there is no need to argue about what is "best" or not. The lists reflect what mods are currently most widely used, and can even inform the smart reader about load orders and possible mod combinations.
Just my 2c.

That thread would become tremendously long, very quickly. Imagine scrolling through ten LOs of 200+ mods to see which mods show up in 9 out of 10 or something. Not to mention, plugins do not always contain the name of a mod, nor indicate what type of mod it comes from. It is really hard to stem people from posting the "what to get for the first time" thread, but I think it is fair enough to point out the "Mod Psychics" and related threads as well. Of course, you need to be looking for a certain type of mod for those to be helpful. That is not much to ask, right?

[Eileen Müller]

Well, I guess some people need a bit more handholding than others, just like in real life. When I started using mods it didn't even occur to me to make a "what are the best mods" topic. One of the fun apects was (and to a degree still is) finding out which mods were popular, read the comments and to find out if they fitted in my view of the game. Also hunting down lesser known mods that tweak gameplay mechanics are very rewarding to find. But I realize I can't expect everyone to do the same.

Exactly my thoughts....however I DO expect them to do the same. Or at the very least, try.

I don't think most of them are lazy. Many really have no clue where to start and may be a bit less tech/mod savy. While other people rather spend their time playing than searching around on the mod sites for hours and hours. So why not ask?

Also I do think they're lazy.... -_-

A little googling goes a very long way. Anybody can search there and get started on what kinds of mods they might be interested in.

[Kortknee Bell]

I don't think a central thread would do anything to affect the quantity of "What are the best mods?" threads. If new players are already ignoring the mounds of lists, the stickies, and the fan sites, what makes you think they'll pay attention to another thread?

Remember that one of the reasons people do this is because they are overwhelmed by the volume of mods. How is a gigantic thread of load orders going to help anyone? It isn't. It will only add to the confusion. Especially since an ESP name barely hints at a mod's function. You might as well just rattle off a list of every single mod out there and say "pick the ones you like!"

[Monika Fiolek]

I am writing a http://sites.google.com/site/oblivionpoinfo/walkthroughs/baininstallguide that will have many recommended mods...eventually. I could at least update the "top upload sites" when they reach the mod download portion.

[Khamaji Taylor]

Well how about every time we see the question "what are the best mods?" we agree to not get caught up on semantics and philosophical angst about the impossibility of finding 'the best' or 'the perfect' mod in an absolute truth sort of sense and instead translate in our heads that what the poster is most likely asking is 'What do you think is the best mod for your game?'

I agree. After all, this is a FORUM, the implied expectation being that people post their opinions and expect others to respond with theirs.

@ Meek: That was hardly "meek", but it was DAMN funny..... :rofl: Couldn't you wait 3 more days....?

[Philip Rua]

I think partly the issue is that since there are so many mod makers that congregate here there is a kind of semi-professional attitude about not wanting to claim best or insult others work. Perhaps a fear of leaving out others or insulting them by not including them.

Hard to say.

I'd propose a new list to be added to the list of lists and that would be a list of fan recommendation sites. There are tons of them for morrowind only a few for Oblivion though.

Arwen's site is a great example.

I've never asked for best of lists myself and kind of picked up on the idea that it is more about mod combinations and not singular 'best of' type mods. From that idea I started looking at load orders.

There are very different schools of load orders though depending upon the time and place.

Nexus forums have a very different vibe regarding all this and really it seems that this forum in particular is very overhaul driven in both mod recommendations and load order thinking. Elsewhere I've seen posters getting into arcane combination of Race and Beauty or House and Quest or armor/clothes and lots or weapons.

Really this forum to me is the home of the overhaul.

[Neko Jenny]

To think that the spree of "best mod" threads is an attack of spam on the forums is quite simply idiotic. Most of the members that start those threads are so "green" (for lack of a better word) that they seek out what the more experienced members use so they can achieve a sense of norm around here. To call them lazy is hypocritical because all of us at one point were exactly at the same stage they were at. We can't all simply expect new members to google answers, read stickies, and follow our fabricated structure of society and personal conduct before asking such questions for help. I think we all can climb off our high horse every now and then.

[Neko Jenny]

To think that the spree of "best mod" threads is an attack of spam on the forums is quite simply idiotic. Most of the members that start those threads are so "green" (for lack of a better word) that they seek out what the more experienced members use so they can achieve a sense of norm around here. To call them lazy is hypocritical because all of us at one point were exactly at the same stage they were at. We can't all simply expect new members to google answers, read stickies, and follow our fabricated structure of society and personal conduct before asking such questions for help. I think we all can climb off our high horse every now and then.

I don't appreciate being called an 'idiot' or 'idiotic', which amounts to the same thing. The same thread posted over and over is 'spam', fact. If you do not agree with another's opinion there are far politer and more constructive ways to state it.

No one is saying that the OPs of these threads are specifically trying to spam. But all these threads asking the same question amount to spam on the forum, they are duplicate threads. It IS spam.

As for the hypocritical statement, that makes no sense at all and is totally uncalled for. Firstly just because we were all beginners once does not make us hypocritical for expecting other beginners to read the stickies. That doesn't even make sense at all.

Secondly, yes I was a beginner and you know what...I read the stickies, searched through the sites, looked at lists and tried numerous mods. It is not unreasonable at all to expect others to do a little leg work of their own before requiring other's time and effort.

Fact is that it IS a problem and I for one do stay away from these forums often because of it. I don't want to have to scroll through numerous 'best mod' threads when all the answers are in the stickies. It actually drives away older members, I have heard it over and over from other members. Complaints as people's WIPS and RELZs are buried by these threads.

No one is on a 'high horse' and quite frankly that is very insulting towards everyone expressing an opinion on a very real problem. Really, we can cut the 'elitism' accusations rubbish once and for all here, it has no part in this up to now civil discussion on an issue that affects everyone that uses this forum. I know that I for one have had enough of those rediculous accusations. We are providing the OP with some very valid reasons why people have understandably been frustrated at the plethora of 'best mod' threads and that is what the OP asked for.

[Rinceoir]

snip

If you felt I was personally calling you and idiot then my apologies, I simply found that comment to sound idiotic as spam seemed a bit of a overstatement.

After re-reading everything and re-anolyzing different comments, I do understand where you come from about the leg work first. But I simply feel like expecting every new member to do it is a waste since now-a-days half of the members are under the legal smoking age (some younger than 12) and they simply do not understand the sense of where everyone is coming from about the leg work. Which is why I find it off when people say they should expect people to do so.

That is the last im going to say on this though. Im in no condition to argue rationally under my state of influence right now.

[Jade]

I do see your point. I think both sides have a case and perhaps the best thing to do is have a standard copy/paste statement that guides the askers to the lists and other information in a polite manner. Meanwhile the lists and help threads are made a little more comprehensive, shorter and more basic. In this way such threads are answered without continual bumping and others with the same question are guided to the correct place. This also discourages continual threads as the answer is always the same, but the answer is what the seeker needs most. If that all makes sense.

[Yvonne Gruening]

Does the Oblivion modding forums have a thread http://www.gamesas.com/?showtopic=1060141 People often link to that one when the question is asked in Morrowind modding, it's a good thread.

[Breanna Van Dijk]

Does the Oblivion modding forums have a thread http://www.gamesas.com/?showtopic=1060141 People often link to that one when the question is asked in Morrowind modding, it's a good thread.

Yes. There is the List of Lists, the companion to List of LIsts, and many different people have created "starter packages." I have now created my own http://sites.google.com/site/oblivionpoinfo/newerusers as well.

[Amanda savory]

This topic caught my interest as I've both been involved with forums such as this and also manage forums. So, I figured I'd share my thoughts on the subject. As I've seen both sides of the issue from a few different perspectives.

As much as one would like, it is unrealistic to expect newbies to read all the sticky threads. It is also unrealistic to expect them to have the familiarity and knowledge necessary to always ask specific, detailed questions. Also, as someone else mentioned, even if you manage to teach one newbie the way around, that knowledge isn't magically transferred to the next. So, threads asking for a list of "best mods" and such are inevitable.

Regarding the sticky posts. Although most of the information is applicable and useful, there is a daunting amount of highly detailed information there. Even though much of it is current (as a lot doesn't change), some haven't been updated in 1.5 years or more. That doesn't give the impression of being current. But again, this is assuming people even read the stickies.

Regarding the forum search engine. It is pitiful, as are most forum search engines. Without a fairly unique keyword, you can't expect to really find much of use.

Regarding the attitude that "best mods" threads are SPAM. I think that is wrong on all counts. At worst such threads are subjectively clutter (but you can use the search engine to avoid the clutter, right? ). But I believe they should be seen more as interested, motivated mod "consumers". Turning them away, brushing them off, or being anything but welcoming (even if they don't do things "your way") is doing a disservice to the community.

All that said, I think I may have a solution! One that is minimally painful to long-time members, and still helpful and welcoming to newbies.

:.
:::.
:::::.

SOLUTION:

When a "best mods" thread appears, and you have a free minute or two, do not reply to the thread, but instead send a quick private message to the poster listing a few of your favorite mods.

:.
:::.
:::::.

WHY?:

1. It answers the person's question.

2. The person feels as if they are getting personal attention and a friendly welcome.

3. If the thread receives no replies it will quickly fade from view, and as the poster has received a private message, or multiple messages, answering their question, they'll have no reason to bump the thread.

4. I don't feel it is necessary, but if you do, and want to enlighten the person in your private message as to all the existing information and such, you are doing so privately. Thus avoiding the public shaming and increasing the chances the person will be back, and maybe become a valuable member of the community.

[Your Mum]

I have seriously updated the mod downloading section of my guide. It should be somewhat helpful to people just starting out.
http://sites.google.com/site/oblivionpoinfo/walkthroughs/baininstallguide/downloadmods

[no_excuse]

I did not intend for this to make anyone mad.

It's worth saying; it would be very sad if all that happened here were people making things for themselves. None of these mods got thirty thousand downloads because other modders looked at it. That's us. The non-modders. We are your appreciative and admiring consumers. And absent our interaction here this would be an echo chamber of modders coming here to seek help from other modders, so they could create mods that only other modders would see. Again, sad.

Let's try this - if you are a modder who has somehow come to resent questions from people who want to use what you've worked on, just ignore our threads. If you are a modder who understands the potential disaster of even beginning to set some of this stuff up, that there are tens of thousands of mods, and you like the idea of a person making the effort to figure out how all this functions so they can experience your work, leave a note. If you have a spare moment. Maybe you know of a great little mod that isn't on anyone's top 10. Something you made or found. Or perhaps a mod that has had issues previously has been fixed and is now top notch. You pass that along. Surely the fans of this game understand the importance of "trail lore".

I also want say this loud and clear - there are people here who are just as gracious as they can possibly be. They go out of their way to help and, without that, many of these mods would be unworkable for the average person. THANK YOU. Really. I can't tell you how often I've mentioned this or that mod and then added that I couldn't get the darn thing to work until came to my rescue. Again, thanks.

Also worth noting, there are people who come here and don't bother to do anything but complain. They start at thread and sit back and whine because they did not bother with the readme and they are not helping themselves. In the end they get angry because they never spent two seconds to figure out how to make this wonderful, free thing they downloaded (that took countless hours to perfect) work. I do not defend such types. And I contend that there is a huge difference between that and what I'm advocating. No one thinks that a post like that should be taken seriously or respected, though I recall that they have been by the kinder folks here many times, and I have learned alot from reading them.

This post began because I'm getting ready to build another Oblivion game. And I am going to be around, asking questions, and opinions. I don't want to bother anyone. But, respectfully and with appreciation, I am going to ask. That's what this forum is here for and if my question seems noobish or foolish or whatever they may be please, by all means, skip it. No help is no help, and no thanks. There is no doubt in my mind that someone will pat me on the head and aim me in the right direction, as has always been the case.

Just as with Morrowind, the mod community here is unique for it's skill and long term dedication. It would be a shame if no one knew about it, save the few who have the time and knowledge to create these these amazing places and things.

[josie treuberg]

I've rarely seen anyone get much negative feedback for asking technical, specific questions.

Even a thread that asks "hey what is the best hotkey mod" will be heartily supported.

The two things I've seen that really bug people is using the entire forum like it is their own thread and asking one very narrow question in its own thread repeatedly when right there floating at the top is the official relz thread.

That and vaguely worded questions that really can't be answered well. Like what is the best mod.

Other than that - just be respectful and keep focused and you are golden.

Everyone goes through some kind of hazing/adjustment. I still recall the author of Blood and Mud giving me pages of grief in my first thread. Of course that thread was basically a challenge stating that no one could really have over 200 mods active and have a stable game, so I was asking for it.

btw I have well surpassed that challenge.

[Cool Man Sam]

Sorry for busting on this tread like this i have recently got back to oblivion again

I think that this tread should be kept alive and all
I have many mods and i don't think i can play the game without any of them
I am just wondering where the hell is my Ren's Guard Overhaul esp lol
I am really grateful to all the modders that created any mods, even I am a modder
The mods that are must have are FCOM combined with T.I.E., however there are other needed mods such as COBL, Supreme Magicka, Deadly Reflex(the bad side is that you can decap ghosts and such), darker dungeons, nights, real lights, atmospheric dungeons, screen effects, real hunger and sleep, the mods that add more hotkeys and so much more...
Making the game challenging and full of many things makes it epic!
Those who cheat or hate losing can go play world of warcraft or something where gayplay is allowed multiplayer or not i am glad this game isn't multiplayer

If you are a newb and want to know which mods to download just ask the question, nobody will hurt you, people who don't want to answer just don't have to even look, those who are willing to help, please do!

I forgot to include Nice One's Enhanced Economy, thanks Nice One!

[Shaylee Shaw]

I think that this tread should be kept alive and all

I don't. I think it should be closed as fast as possible.

Not everybody has been around here for all these years, and new members should not be bullied away by people who intimidate them for asking questions that are obvious because they are the questions people most want the answers to. If you don't like the thread, just don't post in it. Don't even read it. Just move along and let others answer.

This is a forum designed for the purposes of allowing people to ask questions about the games. That's part of the appeal of BGS games: they've got long legs, particularly if you decide to get into modding. Those kinds of questions just come with the territory. We don't consider them spam. We DO consider a lot of the posts in here flames, however, and we'll be looking at that.