All right then, can't believe I'm gonna do this, but I'm going to argue for just three skills.

Combat, Magic, and Stealth.

Now just listen for a sec here. Skills in my system would work as measurements of synergy. The three skills would grow as you use any of the things that pertain to that skill. The higher the skill level, the easier it would be to level up the perk tree's and you'd get a slight bonus...slight being the key word...to damage. Perk tree's would consist of the trunk, which would contain 100 stars and would level up just as skill bar's do now with only a slight variaty in them, and the branches which would contain alternate path's for the tree to grow.

I'm basically arguing for more variaty with the current skills and a better representation of synergy.

What's the point of having any more than that? Should I know how to use a sword because I use an axe a lot? Uh, yes? Combat with weapons is different, but many of the basic ideas are the same. You gain combat experience, no matter what you use. You learn to read your enemy and anticipate their moves, no matter what weapon you are holding. It then becomes more dependent on what weapon you are using when you react to your enemy. You're reaction will vary. A hand to hand fighter will dodge, while a fighter with a sword in one hand and a shield in the other will use the shield to block and then counter with the sword. You need a skill for that, when it can easily be represented in the game? Infact, it all ready is in the game. The player themselves learns that, do we need a number to show that the character does too? Perks can easily then go further in depth, showing that you learned the tricks of the trade with each and every type of weapon.

Magic. Magic is the general term used for the channeling of raw energy into effects that can be experienced in the physical world. Is there a different way to channel things to get different effects? It could be interpreted that way, but it also can easily be taken the other way as well. The magic skill would show how well you are at channeling magic in general. Before the effect can be stamped on, you have to be able to channel it. The better you are at channeling magicka, the better you will be at handling magic in general. Perks could then come into play, showing if you are better at using the destruction effect rather than the restoration. Wouldn't your knowledge with destruction magic help you get a handle on restoration spells? Both are the channeling of magic into effects that are seen and experienced in the physical world, wouldn't being good at one help in learning the other?

Stealth. Using the shadows to get where you want to go and take what you want to take. Pretty much a standalone skill as it is. Infact, it’s all ready in game, not much reason for me to explain why it can stand alone. The only thing that could be added here is speechcraft. Stealth does not only use shadows, using other things to not stand out. Clothes to help you blend in, being able to talk your way out of confrontation or how to talk in order to gain info. Perks could help you become an even better talker than being a stealthy character would give you, giving you unique dialogue options you wouldn’t have otherwise.


Now for the wildcards.

First off, why is lock-picking even a skill? Every single lock in the world is the same damn thing. Once you figure out how to pick one, you can pick every other one like it. There is no skill picking a lock, it only takes the smarts to know what it takes to pick it. If there were different locks, it could then be considered a skill. You would need to figure out on the fly which kind of lock it is, and what it takes to get past it. If you run into one you've never seen before, your skill would help you get past this new one.

But still, if locks were different, it could still be placed in the sneak skill. Scratch that, it would be all but ignored. Why you ask? In game representation. In oblivion, it wasn't the skill opening the box, it was the player. Once the player got the learning curve, it didn't matter what kind of lock it was. Now, Fallout 3 used a system that blocked those without a high enough skill to even try. That should not be used. My character vary well is going to at least try. What if he gets lucky? What should be used is a system that effects the mini-game, based on our your stealth skill. Why stealth? For one, a stealth character is going to have steady hands. They're used to staying calm in the dark, stalking their pray. That steadiness increases as the skill increases, so why should they suddenly be nervous when picking a lock?

Enchanting. The channeling of raw energy into an item, instead of the outside physical world. Channeling magicka is all ready handled with the magic skill. Why have two? Perks could easily be used to show you getting better with that specific task, such as having a better efficiency in taking the souls from the soul gems and transfusing it to the item.

Crafting? Why should that even a skill? Unless we have the ability to make our own totally unique items, while not being restricted to what the devs come up with, it shouldn’t even be considered. Armorer, smithing, and alchemy are the same. Anyone can cook if they have the directions infront of them. Some perk trees could easily handle these things. The first perk would allow you to do these odd jobs and could be taken at any time, and then the tree would branch out in the different ways one could specialize.

Athletics…are you really simply running around in game just for the sake of running around? This can easily be tied into things like strength and endurance, you’ll get stronger when fighting which increases both muscle mass and endurance which are the main parts of running, with a small perk tree which would be given automatically that would allow for simple increases such as better running form for more efficiency or speed.

Light and Heavy armor are last. They deal with combat. If you’re in heavy, you’re not going to be able to move that fast. Light helps you move a little faster, but still protects vital spots. No armor lets you be the fastest, but you don’t have anything protecting you. Perk tree's in each of these three sub-categories could easily show your specialization with them. Combat in general would help you react to an opponent, and your armor would help cover you when you slip up. The perks would show you getting better at moving in a specific armor, but the combat skill in general would show your ability to move in order to use your armor to glance blows and negate attacks that you couldn’t dodge or block yourself.

As for leveling. Each main perk tree would have a straight line down the middle of 100 stars. These one hundred stars would represent each level, from 1 to one hundred and would surve the same perpose the skills have now. These would be gained automatically as you use the skill, just like it is now, it would mearly be represented more artistically. Branches of the tree would break off at the specific level you would gain access to them. Such as an ability to swim perk branch off at level 25 for athletics. When your character themselves level up, they'd get to choose one branch perk for every 3 main skill perks they get for that skill. Get three longsword perk levels, you'd get to choose one branch perk for the longsword. Get 5 perk levels, you'd get to choose one branch perk, but then two level perks would transfur, meaning you'd only need to get 1 perk level next time to choose another branch perk.

As for the menu, You would see the three skills up at the top of your menu screen grouped together. You'd see the name, number the skill is at, and then a bar next to the number showing how long it will take till you level up again. After a small break, you would get a list of all the perk trees, spread sheet style. Same format; name, number, bar to show how much till you're next level up. You could then scroll through the perk tree names, and after clicking on a name it would switch to the heavens picture we'll be getting for Skyrim. You'd see the tree with all the stars, and you could look over what you have and what you can get. Star's that you don't have will remain dark, leaving you to wonder what they will be.

There you have it. Skills could be reduced to three, and still function. Best part is, none of this has anything to do with an rpg game in the slightest! So getting fewer, would infact not reduce your rpging experience. So using that argument is not valid, because skills have little to nothing to do with the role. Sorry for all the reading you have to do, but it needed to be done. If you read everying to this part, thanks. If you didn’t, instead just skimming to the bottom, don’t flame me or anyone else. You can disagree with me, but make it factual, and give a reason why I’m wrong. Don’t just call me stupid. All I really did was change the name from skills to perk tree's, the function itself would be the same, only allowing for more uniqueness. I also made it so a master of say longswords wouldn't be as skilled as a child when it came to using an axe, that's just silly, they'd have some idea of how to work an axe after years of fighting. At the very least they'd be able to pick up the weapon and learn how to wield it faster.

Thoughts?

So your just arguing for 3 skills: combat, magic, and stealth?
:confused:

I dont agree on many points, all the different combat sytles require different training yes it helps you by knowing other styles, thats why I think 1 hand and two hand are a good idea. On the different styles of magic, they are kind of the smae but its a differnt style. SO you need to have different skills for them.

Lock Picking are you insane. Do you knwo how hard it is, just cause you can pick a door handle lock, does not mean you can pick a safe. Competely silly.

Armor skills are like combat skills, light and heavy armors have the same type of idea, but both are gain different skillsets, and styles. A few of your points I cant remember but I really dont agree, and Im not sure whether you really want this, but you made a good effort and your reasons are pretty good.

Look at me, I am skilled with a dagger, therefore I am a master at using a warhammer and also a master at using a shield.

Don't give them any ideas.

Why not just have one skill -- Awesomeness!

am not a fan of mass streamlining myself which is why i like ME more than ME2 i like the options and as many opportunities to customize or specialize my character in any and every way

Wow,
you have some stones to even suggest that on this forum! Kudos for taking the leap. Now let me explain why this is a bad idea.

This is an RPG, and we all have certain expectation when it comes to what an RPG should be. One thing that is consistent through almost all RPGs is the idea of customization. We want to role play right, so all those little stats we work on have meaning outside of their function. When I roleplay as a thief I invest time and effort into Stealth skills, but not simply to be good at those things. It is part of the definition I am giving to my character. I look at those stats as a direct reflection of my actions (which is the way the leveling system is set up. I do it, I get better at it), and as a characterization tool. It puts my roleplaying into a context that is visual and actual.

There are so many things that are different between each skill that it wouldn't make sense to seperate it into 3 skills. Like that above about being skilled with a daggar so he is also with a warhammer and shield. And also being able to pick a lock has hardly anything to do with going undetected I feel. I can open up that locked chest so therefor I am good at hiding and sneaking past people. Doesn't Make sense. They would be downgrading the game by doing that. What is next? Only being allowed to play one race?

just have one skill - adventurer

I suspect this is a poorly implemented bit of satire.

Still gonna cause a [censored]storm.

Guys, he's being facetious. He is making this argument to draw parallels between this and the streamlining for Skyrim.

All right then, can't believe I'm gonna do this, but I'm going to argue for just one skill.

Power.

What's the point of having any more than that? Should I know how to use a sword because I use a magic scroll a lot? Uh, yes? Usage of items is different, but many of the basic ideas are the same. You gain experience, no matter what you use. You learn to read your items and anticipate their functions, no matter what item you are holding. It then becomes more dependent on what item you are using when you react to your environment. You're reaction will vary. A hand to hand fighter will dodge, a magicker will magick, a theif will stealth, while a fighter with a sword in one hand and a shield in the other will use the shield to block and then counter with the sword. You need a skill for that, when it can easily be represented in the game? Infact, it all ready is in the game. The player themselves learns that, do we need a number to show that the character does too? Perks can easily then go further in depth, showing that you learned the tricks of the trade with each and every type of item.

Magic is the general term used for the usage of raw power into effects that can be experienced in the physical world. Is there a different way to use things to swing a sword or cut a purse? It could be interpreted that way, but it also can easily be taken the other way as well. The power skill would show how well you are at using power in general. Before the effect can be stamped on, you have to be able to use it. The better you are at using power, the better you will be at handling it in general. Perks could then come into play, showing if you are better at using the axe effect rather than the mysticism magic. Wouldn't your knowledge with axing power help you get a handle on mysticism spellpower? Both are the usage of power into effects that are seen and experienced in the physical world, wouldn't being good at one help in learning the other?

Using the power to get where you want to go and take what you want to take. Pretty much a standalone skill as it is. Infact, it’s all ready in game, not much reason for me to explain why it can stand alone. The only thing that could be added here is speechcraft. Power does not only use power, using other things to not stand out. Clothes to help you blend in, being able to talk your way out of confrontation or how to talk in order to gain info. Perks could help you become an even better talker than being a powerful character would give you, giving you unique dialogue options you wouldn’t have otherwise.


Now for the wildcards.

First off, why is lock-picking even a skill? Every single lock in the world is the same damn thing. Once you figure out how to pick one, you can pick every other one like it. There is no skill picking a lock, it only takes the smarts to know what it takes to pick it. If there were different locks, it could then be considered a skill. You would need to figure out on the fly which kind of lock it is, and what it takes to get past it. If you run into one you've never seen before, your skill would help you get past this new one.

But still, if locks were different, it could still be placed in the power skill. Scratch that, it would be all but ignored. Why you ask? In game representation. In oblivion, it wasn't the skill opening the box, it was the player. Once the player got the learning curve, it didn't matter what kind of lock it was. Now, Fallout 3 used a system that blocked those without a high enough skill to even try. That should not be used. My character vary well is going to at least try. What if he gets lucky? What should be used is a system that effects the mini-game, based on our your power skill. Why power? For one, a powerful character is going to have steady hands. They're used to staying calm in the dark, stalking their pray or killing them mercilessly, or doing any manner of things. That steadiness increases as the skill increases, so why should they suddenly be nervous when picking a lock?

Enchanting. The channeling of raw power into an item, instead of the outside physical world. Using power is all ready handled with the power skill. Why have two? Perks could easily be used to show you getting better with that specific task, such as having a better efficiency in taking the souls from the soul gems and transfusing it to the item.

Crafting? Why should that even a skill? Unless we have the ability to make our own totally unique items, while not being restricted to what the devs come up with, it shouldn’t even be considered. Armorer, smithing, and alchemy are the same. Anyone can cook if they have the directions infront of them. Some perk trees could easily handle these things. The first perk would allow you to do these odd jobs and could be taken at any time, and then the tree would branch out in the different ways one could specialize.

Athletics…are you really simply running around in game just for the sake of running around? This can easily be tied into the power skill, you’ll get more power when doing anything which increases power which is the main part of running, with perks that allow for simple increases.

Light and Heavy armor are last. They deal with power. If you’re in heavy, you’re not going to be able to move that fast. Light helps you move a little faster, but still protects vital spots. No armor lets you be the fastest, but you don’t have anything protecting you. Perks in each of these three sub-categories could easily show your specialization with them. Power in general would help you react to an opponent, and your armor would help cover you when you slip up. The perks would show you getting better at moving in a specific armor, but the power skill in general would show your ability to move in order to use your armor to glance blows and negate attacks that you couldn’t dodge or block yourself.

There you have it. Skills could be reduced to one, and still function. Best part is, none of this has anything to do with an rpg game in the slightest! So getting fewer, would infact not reduce your rpging experience. So using that argument is not valid, because skills have little to nothing to do with the role. Sorry for all the reading you have to do, but it needed to be done. If you read everying to this part, thanks. If you didn’t, instead just skimming to the bottom, don’t flame me or anyone else. You can disagree with me, but make it factual, and give a reason why I’m wrong. Don’t just call me stupid.

Thoughts?

FTFY

Umm, wow.
On combat: just cause you can swing a hammer hard enough to crush a skull, doesnt mean you can slice someone up with a sword. Each type of weapon requires different skill sets. I thought it was stupid that axe and blunt got combined! Swordsmanship requires finesse, agility, and strength. To do well with a hammer, you have to be REALLY strong. Axe is kind of inbetween, with some finesse, but not much, and you can just hack through people and still be effective. If you swing a sword around in the general direction of your opponent, you are gonna die. You do that with a hammer, HE is gonna die. It requires different skill sets, and not only that, different mind sets.

On magic: So, if someone is an amazing mathmatition(probly butchered that word), are they also amazing at science? A scientist of one area, does he automaticaly know as much on all areas? I mean, its just channeling brain power, right? And as you point out exactly how stupid what I just said is, that is what I was thinking about the magic. One overarcing skill, deciding on how well you can channel magic, fine. But again, different areas, different skill sets, different mindsets. I have never read a book that had magic in, where a wizard/mage/sorceror/whatever could do equaly well in every area, just cause he could do well in one. Illusion and alteration would require(like swordsmanship) more finesse. The ability to work out small details. Destruction, would be like the hammer. You take your magic, and release it with a bang. Restoration, again, finesse cause you have to heal the wounds, internally and externally. But really, it makes sense to have mages concentrate on certain areas. You wont learn to heal people better by shooting fire at trolls. That just doesnt make sense.

On stealth: OK, most of what you say on that makes sense. Except lockpicking. First off, in Oblivion locks are different, if only because of different amounts of tumblers. Second, just cause you can sneak around without being seen, doesnt mean you have the necessary skills to open a lock. As well, on speachcraft, just because you can persuade someone, or get someone to like you, doesnt mean that you can prevent yourself by being seen. Its all mostly unrelated.

On enchanting and crafting: Just because you can give your magic physical manifestation, doesnt mean you can channel it into an item. I think it should be a subskill, to each area of magic. Now, with crafting, and alchemy. Lolwut? You can have a recipe, and the ingredients, and follow the instructions, and you can end up with charcoal, or something so disgusting, you throw it out after half a bite. And cooking=/=smithing. And smithing should be a skill, for multiple reasons. So you can repair armour, and to be integrated into the job system they are talking about. From what I can tell, you can become a smith, and make weapons and armour.

On running: Again, lolwut? Running=/=fighting. Swinging around weapons will do nothing to your leg muscles wich are what make you run. To develop THOSE muscles, guess what? You have to run. So that makes sense.

On armour: You go around in light armour for half your life, then put on a suit of heavy platemail, you are gonna be useless. You have to get used to the armour you are using, to be able to use it effectively.

Altogether, I disagree with what you say on there only being 3 skills, and I really just dont see the point in it.

Why have any skills at all lets just turn ES into a button mashing hack and slash series!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is just a win.

This is why I prefer the RNG method to lockpicking in Morrowind over the minigame you found in Oblivion. Player skill pretty much rendered the need for actually leveling your security skill non-existent. The only benifit from leveling the skill was to save some grace on the off chance you failed.

The RNG system on the other hand made you level it so you wouldn't go though lockpicks like water though a garden hose, it also made you have to level your skill so you could deal with more complex locks (of course this is fixable by setting the game to not even allow you to attempt the lock if your skill is too low, like in Fallout).

But what the OP said, this is nuts. There is an art to picking locks and it isn't something like successfully doing it once makes you a master at lockpicking. Just because you successfully pick the lock on your front door once, doesn't mean you can do it in thirty seconds every time from then on or be able to go to the neighbors house and do it again on his just as fast. (Unrelated note: Paper clips DO make effective picks, but you should still buy a real tension wrench.) An effective locksmith or infiltrator learns how to tell just when he hits the pins sweet spot and when to apply extra tension to set it, how to set pins quickly, and how to keep the pins from falling back to their at rest position to avoid foul-ups.

The main advantage of skills, I think, is the potential to just do what comes naturally for your character and improve in that area. You become better at destruction by throwing fireballs instead of leveling up and picking "better fire", which you may or may not have actually been using.

One downside with gradual increases is that effects are less immediately noticeable and interesting. Levelling up in Morrowind and gaining +10 magicka and can now use a fireball that does 32 damage instead of 30 isn't as fun as gaining a level in Baldur's Gate and gaining access to a new level of Druid spells. Another is that some things don't get enough frequent use to make a whole 100 point scale work well (acrobatics, I think). So the addition of perks to complement our skills is something I agree with, but not to this extent.

They could probably represent the same amount of useable actions like this as they could with 18 skills + perks (level-up bonuses), but it would be way unwieldy. What's the advantage to cutting down the skill list this way and making everything else into perks? It's easier to look at a skill sheet and see 51 destruction, 21 illusion to get an idea of where we're at than to add up all of your fire, ice, and whatnot perks. Every time you level up you'd spend like 15 minutes searching through the giant perk list and deciding between them.

It seems like you'd be losing the original benefit of switching to a skill-focused character system in the first place and might as well just be like older games where all improvement comes from assigning points at level-up time instead of letting the game take over some of that for you by increasing what we're using. Since they mentioned wanting to make the magic less "spreadsheety" I doubt they'd go for this for the character sheet.

Arena (The Elder Scrolls I) had absolutely no skills. It'll take less than three to make a record for the least amount of skills in a core Elder Scrolls games.


ashes to ashes, dust to dust, Arena's skill variety to Arena's skill variety...

You said it much longer with more detail that really anyone else here... :icecream:
And with the current amount, I feel like there isn't enough skills. I would prefer the skills in weapons to be Long Blade, ShortBlade, Axe, Polearm, and Blunt... Asking for less would be too little. As of now I plan to mod the game to add mysticism and more skills we lost if they make it possible to add skills, and if not wait until a CS hack comes out that adds it like the oblivion one with magic affects... So NO LESS SKILLS!

Well, I gave a more detailed response so I could systematicaly destroy every one of his points . No, but really I just wanted to outline exactly why I think it would be a bad idea.
And I agree. I really liked how the skills were in morrowind. It worked really well.

You're only focusing on what is different. Yes, they are different. I know that. But there are similatites here as well. You're not only gaining experience wielding a dagger when you fight with one. You're also gaining fighting experience in general. Knowing when to dodge, knowing when and how to block, and when to attack. Someone who has been fighting for their entire life and had earned a combat level of 100, even if they just used a hammer the whole time, will know how a dagger works. They've been attacked by people wielding dagers, they know an opening when they see it. They'd know how to use it.

Perks would then go further into each of the weapon classes. The combat master would know how to wield a dagger, but only at it's basic level. They wouldn't know all the special tricks they could do with it. It would be this. "Look at me, I am a master of combat. See how that fighter over there takes a long time to swing his sword down? If you have a dagger, you could get in quick and hit him. But if you have a hammer, you'll have to wait because you would swing just as slow. But if you place your hand higher on the hammer, you'll swing faster so you could hit that opening. To bad you're not a true master of a hammer."


To those adressing what I said about lockpicking, I agree with you. Lockpicking is hard, and you get better at it with time, its an art. But if in the game its just a simple minigame with one basic lock design, then there isn't a point in having it be a skill. If the lock on the door is the same as the lock on the safe, I won't have much trouble.


Casting fireballs will help you learn healing spells. You'll get a better handle on gathering that raw power. The perks would then show what you specialize in.

Being a suave talker doesn't mean you'll be able to hide yourself in the shadows. It means you'll be able to talk in a way that allows you to blend in while out in the open. If you're bad at speechcraft you'll stick out like a sore thumb, and people will keep an eye on you, be it that they don't trust you or that you're just wierd. One can be stealthy out in the open and durring the day just as much at night and in the shadows.

In my combat system, you'll gain muscle mass, lung capasity, and enduence by having heavy armor on, or dodging very fast. That translates into being able to run in a straight line faster than someone who didn't fight at all.

Look at light armor in Oblivion. Elven armor does not look that light to me. It looks heavy armor would handle much the same way, it would just slow you down more.

I've only burnt things when I wasn't paying attention. It wasn't because my cooking skill was low. The instructions told me what to do, I just spaced out for a while.

For smithing, thats why I brought up a separate perk tree. In real life, there my goodness it would take a lot of skill. But in game, if its just put ore in heater, take out armor it doesn't need its own skill. For it to be a skill, you need the ability to fail.

And for those taking me a step further and saying we should make it all one skill for hack and slash, I can't argue against you...because your not taking what I'm saying seriously.

There were a few to found what I'm saying full of satire and it been facetious, well that's not all true. I am being partially serious here. The system I truely wish for is where every time I said perk, I meant a subskill. The subskills would increase the three big skills, and the higher the three big skills were the faster the subskills would level. However, I wanted to use perks to show how it could be more visually ingame implemented.

On combat: Fighting a weapon tells you how to fight it, not how to fight with it.
On magic: You didnt even adress any of my points, you just said, no it actualy would help.
On stealth: Agreed.
On armour: I dunno about that. Maybe its a special material?

Never played arena (heard it was not very good), but Daggerfell was great and had a ton of skills.

No, just no, this is a roleplaying game, not an action/adventure, and it is better if it stays that way. What they are doing right now is reasonable: 3 divisions of skills each with 6 skills and a multitude of perks for each to further customize your character. What would in my opinion be better, but would not die if they did not have: 10-30 General skills: Such as: One-handed, destruction, and crafting. Each general skill would be made up of specific skills such as:One-handed- Sword, Dagger, axe, Mace, Hammer, Other (strange weapons like akaviri weapons). Destruction- Fire magic, Ice magic, Electric Magic, Pure Destruction (Things like damage health, magicka etc.), Drain Magic, Other (Foreign or not oftenly used types of magic). Crafting: Smithing (weapons and armors), survival (cooking, fishing, hunting, etc.), Art (create things for money primarily), etc. Each Specific skill would consist of fine skills. Fine skills are these things like fire magic, ice magic, etc. You level up your fine skills like you level up skills in other elder scrolls games. They level up at a much faster pace than normal skills. you level up 10 fine skill points to get one specific skill point. For every specific skill point, you help advance toward your specific skill level and get one fine skill perk. (these are minor things like a + 0.05% damage with swords). When you advance 5 specific skill points, you gain one skill point. Each skill level up brings you a specific skill perk (you can make larger fireballs) You have an actual level up after 10 skill level ups. This brings you a real perk and normal leveling up such as increases in health etc. This probably sounds a bit to complex, but everything except the actual level ups would be done in the background. (you would not pick minor perks, they just come at every 10 ranks, like advancing to journeyman, etc. in a skill).

This would be for maximum character individualism, and would make leveling much slower, but much more rewarding, and semi-level-ups would also be important.