yes you are working on removing stuff form the game and i say no ...

I approve! I would totally be sarcastic all the time.

no, we aren't. We're talking about Bethesda's habit of simplifying games by removing skills (see Skyrim), and if you bothered to read the vast majority of posts in this thread youd see that most are against the idea of a removal.

No offence; but it seems as though you read the title and nothing else.

I would point out that my suggestion to remove the Speech skill came at the change in how robust and deep speech tests became in speech test in NV, not from simplifying the game. That said, someone suggested pairing the speech skill with other logical skills/SPECIAL stats to pass speech tests which I now support as much as removing it e.g. STR + Speech to intimidate people out of a fight, Science + speech to convince someone about something robotic or dealing with computers.

Removing skills doesn't always mean simplifying the game. We saw the perk system simplified in NV and those perks kicked F3's #$%. With less perks, they were able to make them much, much more fun and cooler.

Well, im not sure this is strictly true. The perk system was (drastically) simplified in F3, id say that it was actually expanded upon in F:NV, not even remotely simplified.

However, i do understand what you mean.

The perk system was definitely (unquestionably, saying since there are retards who think otherwise) downgraded from the first games in Fallout 3, and definitely still downgraded in NV but upgraded from Fallout 3. But it was still a "baibies first Fallout".

Eh, six in one hand, half dozen the other. I agree with you, but a lot of their recent moves can be classified as simplification. It all depends on one's own perspective of the situation. Some see it as simplification, others see it as a removal.

My point to Vajan was that a lot of us aren't talking about removing speech, but the possibility of it's removal, and how he was trying to derail the topic saying:

I like the discussion in this thread, I'd hate to see it locked because Vajan went and derailed the thread.

Deception
Persuasion
Sarcasm
Pessimism - talk down your enemy until they give up.

As yes, i should have clarified that actually; that NV was a definitive step up from F3, but still a step down from 2/3/Tictacs. However, as i am ever the optimist i like to think of it as a step in the right direction.

With a high enough skill level you could make people so depressed they decide to end it all

As i say i'm not derailed the thread in anyway !!!
But even the possibility of it's removal is a big no no, we need more to build the character on/whit not less!!!

Speech to go?

I believe not so, but like the merging of big guns and small guns in FO3, i think its time barter moves into speech. And maybe this could clear room for some other kind of interesting skill

What do you mean clear some room? There is already lots of room for other skills, in fact, the room has become 5 skills smaller after Fallout 3 was made.

Yes. In fact there are not enough skills. It is far too easy to max out the skills.

Two possible solutions:

a, more skills
b, skills go up to 200

By the end the PC is not just a jack of all trades, but a master of all trades.

..What? I don't even..

This is what's going on in vajan's brain >

And this: "Ad more to mack the game more complex and ways to modify your character in the way you like to do and not mainstream in the way its going to day!

Ad more skills, armor parts ....."

says otherwise, is all I'm saying.

OT - I'm not willing to let Speech as a skill go, however, if it does indeed go. I would still like to get the skill checks. By that I mean Guns 44/50, Medicine 75/80, etc.

Skills need to go up to 200 off the bat, and another 50 every time they increase the level cap via DLC.

True specialization in Fo3/NV was non-existent after a while, since you could just max everything out. (Very different from FO1/2)

Agreed, that has to go. Your character by the end (and through out the entire game) should have their own unique way of dealing with things. That was kind of my thought behind my original suggestion actually. That the speech skill has become such a general skill that you can take it and forsake development of other skills like medicine, barter, etc. My original thought was that you become specialized in certain things and that opens some doors but leaves others closed. I don't feel that a single character build should get to do everything. That's why I think pairing speech with other skills or even attributes to pass some tests would be a good solution too.


Agreed 100%. Actually, I had clarified earlier that I was not talking about removing skill checks. In fact, it's because of the diverse skill checks in NV, that I think removing Speech is possible.

And to be clear to everyone, I don't want a simpler game. I'm not opposed to adding other skills either. However, I am for changes that makes the game experience more specific to the character build, which I'm sure is a shared view here.

Or less skill points.

Possibly, yes. But that's the least favorable option to me. If I could choose I would combine a and b.

I didn't say it was a favorable option but it would still work, given the lack of complexity.

I would totally be pessimistic as well

I guess I'd be cynical... and bipolar...

[Pessimism 45] Yes you are, there is no hope for you, all your friends and family are offset by your Bi-polar and erratic behaviour , you should just give up.

jk

[Sarcasm 60] Wow, that cheered me up a bunch! Thanks, mumatil!

[Deception 100] Decepticons attack!!!

Seriously though, I wouldn't mind seeing something like this implimented.