[TRIsha FEnnesse]

I don't think you understand the Star Forts design. Sloping walls are designed so that cannons balls will ricochet off or roll right over the fort, the same tactic doesn't apply for magickal bombardment as fire balls and lighting bolts don't act the same way as a cannon ball does. Star Forts are specifically designed to counteract cannon fire. Now if you can apply the virtues of the Star Fort to repelling magickal assaults then I'm more than happy to back down from the subject, but the application doesn't really fit.

As for the military strategy bit, a good military commander studies the tactics and strategies of those who came before them. Surely you don't expect me to simply bash my head against your defenses without putting thought in how to undermine them just because someone thinks that by applying their own personal study as ubering do you? I've portrayed Bomilkar as a military tact general, all the tactics I've used have been appropriate to the general time era and I've done nothing that hasn't been done before by various commanders throughout history, and not just 'the greats'.

Tell me exactly what you expect me to do in terms of fighting the battle if not to use my study of military tactics and strategy?

edit: I don't think it would end mean spirited, I've never harbored any ill will toward you or anyone who has defeated me before. If I loose a battle, its because my opponent was the better general. He would be the Scipio to my Hannibal.

[Trevi]

I personally don't think you'd use anything except fireballs to hit walls. I don't see lighting actually shattering stone, and you couldn't get that much ice to do the same thing either I don't think. At best you can hope the explosion of a fireball could shatter the stone. But a star fort would still be useful against pre gunpowder siege weaponry and it's uses go beyond simply ricocheting the shots off.

[FLYBOYLEAK]

I still imagine the design is valid for magic though: I figure that magic meant for damaging fortifications has a powerful kinetic blast, which would be lessened by thick, angled walls and earthen ramparts. It also makes sappers less effective and more exposed to being attacked.

Of course, I can also argue that artillery wasn't advanced from bombards to 18th century instruments of destruction by keeping them in a workshop and having people imagine how to make them better for several centuries. It was constant warfare the pushed cannons to be better and better, and more versatile. And as far as I know, Sentinel hasn't used its cannons in warfare very much.

[Erich Lendermon]

I personally don't think you'd use anything except fireballs to hit walls. I don't see lighting actually shattering stone, and you couldn't get that much ice to do the same thing either I don't think. At best you can hope the explosion of a fireball could shatter the stone. But a star fort would still be useful against pre gunpowder siege weaponry and it's uses go beyond simply ricocheting the shots off.

Defiantly, a Star Fort would make siege towers pretty useless given the angle of the walls and depending on how you model it using battering rams would just make you one large sitting duck. However the advent of the Star Fort was at a time when the siege weapons of old were being replaced with newer methods and of course, gunpowder. They certainly have a huge advantage over the the general ideas of ancient siege, but again I have to point out, their advent was brought on by the use of gunpowder and cannons and the star design wasn't used prior to that because the traditional wall was more than an adequate defense.

On Magicka, I just pulled a few general spells out of my hat, I don't know what other spells you could really use to great effect against walls. In any case, like I said use the star design, its fine by me.

I still imagine the design is valid for magic though: I figure that magic meant for damaging fortifications has a powerful kinetic blast, which would be lessened by thick, angled walls and earthen ramparts. It also makes sappers less effective and more exposed to being attacked.

Of course, I can also argue that artillery wasn't advanced from bombards to 18th century instruments of destruction by keeping them in a workshop and having people imagine how to make them better for several centuries. It was constant warfare the pushed cannons to be better and better, and more versatile. And as far as I know, Sentinel hasn't used its cannons in warfare very much.

Daggerfall makes mention of them being used in their navy, and Sentinel has been embroiled in nearly every conflict in the Illiac Bay. It hasn't been sitting in the work shop, they've been in constant use.

edit: I'd also like to mention, that the joke was that the cannons were so heavy their ships sunk, which would push the Sentilians to attempt and refine and advance their weaponry.

[Averielle Garcia]

I know that in OUR world starforts came to be used due to gunpowder. Key phrase is OUR world. In any case it makes for a better story than just a typical flat wall getting knocked down and having the Sentinel army march through.

[Stacy Hope]

I know that in OUR world starforts came to be used due to gunpowder. Key phrase is OUR world. In any case it makes for a better story than just a typical flat wall getting knocked down and having the Sentinel army march through.

Because that's what the Star Forts were for. Had there been no cannons, there would have been no Star Forts, but now were just debating for the sake of debating. Like I said, I'm fine if you guys wanna make Taneth a Star Fort, I'm more than willing to make that concession if it makes you guys happy but it doesn't change the lack plausibility that Taneth would just so happen to have a defense design that proves wildly effective against cannons when there's been nothing to demand such a drastic change in the cities design. On the other hand, the time frame for advancements of cannons in our timeline fits that of Sentinels and their application in Sentinels navy coupled with the fact Sentinel was a naval power would push for better and more advanced design in my opinion.

It's hard to imagine that the idea didn't just come to mind because we decided to apply the cannons in the field. By now it feels like were just trying to make it so that the Yokudan's can't use the advantage given so that the Knights can have a 'fairer' chance at winning. I could definitely see new designs be created after the fall of Taneth at the hands of the Yokudan's cannon supplemented army, but given we've not used them in sieges before and the tight time period I don't see how Taneth having that sort of design just because.

But like I said, all that aside, its cool because cannons simply aren't the focal point of my strategy. Star design is fine, like IB said all we can do now is nit pick.

[Stacey Mason]

I am going to try to stay neutral on this, but Tidus has a point. The cannons were never used for offensive and walls often take months if not years to build. I doubt the city would be directly ready for a cannon invasion. While they would have some sort of unique defense, the city now seems made to be "cannon proof", something it should not be. I don't agree that the city should be specifically built to counter cannons. While it would be a unique design, and though the Yokudan's main weapon isn't the cannons, the Yokudans don't have magic either (which, they actually hired mages in lore - A'tor had his own wizard), then their advantage is the cannons, just like the defensive forces have magic. But this doesn't make it justified to have the city specifically built for countering cannons, which it seems to be. And saying that it is "designed to cover magic" and also cover cannons isn't much of a good mask either. The city should be unique but it shouldn't be uniquely built to withstand specific Yokudan cannons.

War isn't fair. Ask the prisoners at Agincourt if war was fair, when they were massacred while captured. They can't tell you so because they are dead.

[victoria johnstone]

War isn't fair. Ask the prisoners at Agincourt if war was fair, when they were massacred while captured. They can't tell you so because they are dead.

So is everyone else though

[stevie trent]

I am going to try to stay neutral on this, but Tidus has a point. The cannons were never used for offensive and walls often take months if not years to build. I doubt the city would be directly ready for a cannon invasion. While they would have some sort of unique defense, the city now seems made to be "cannon proof", something it should not be. I don't agree that the city should be specifically built to counter cannons. While it would be a unique design, and though the Yokudan's main weapon isn't the cannons, the Yokudans don't have magic either (which, they actually hired mages in lore - A'tor had his own wizard), then their advantage is the cannons, just like the defensive forces have magic. But this doesn't make it justified to have the city specifically built for countering cannons, which it seems to be. And saying that it is "designed to cover magic" and also cover cannons isn't much of a good mask either. The city should be unique but it shouldn't be uniquely built to withstand specific Yokudan cannons.

War isn't fair. Ask the prisoners at Agincourt if war was fair, when they were massacred while captured. They can't tell you so because they are dead.

So war isn't fair, but this is to be of a balance of "advantages" and "disadvantages"? Even if we go by that, I think Tidus explained fairly well in a previous discussion thread how magic isn't much of an advantage. Besides the teleporter.

As for the star fort idea, surely Taneth has been watching Sentinel's cannons and their development long enough to think of ways to counter them, because Taneth is a Forbear city and Sentinel is a Crown city: they don't like each other, even if they worked together for the last few centuries. You might as well call BS on how they've managed to keep their gunpowder a trade secret from everyone despite being producing it by the ton and using it for centuries.

[Evaa]

So war isn't fair, but this is to be of a balance of "advantages" and "disadvantages"? Even if we go by that, I think Tidus explained fairly well in a previous discussion thread how magic isn't much of an advantage. Besides the teleporter.

As for the star fort idea, surely Taneth has been watching Sentinel's cannons and their development long enough to think of ways to counter them, because Taneth is a Forbear city and Sentinel is a Crown city: they don't like each other, even if they worked together for the last few centuries. You might as well call BS on how they've managed to keep their gunpowder a trade secret from everyone despite being producing it by the ton and using it for centuries.

Sentinel is a Forbear city my friend, always has been and is explicitly documented as so. Sentinel's allegiance to the Yokudan Empire comes from years at being under Lothun who was a blend between Crown and Forbear (much like Haroun) as well as the fact that it's been Hammerfell's capital for eras now..oh and lets not forget military occupation and considerable reform under Haroun. Again, the Star Fort was a direct result of the use of Cannon's against cities, given the fact that Taneth or any of the other cities haven't ever been besieged by cannons would mean that they likely wouldn't have had a major understanding of how to counter them, let alone come up with a design that can be deployed with such instant success. Without having seen the effect of cannons on walls, how is it that they came to the conclusion that by building sloped walls would be any better than simply building the walls higher and thicker?

On gunpoweder: There has been at least one instance of a formula being encrypted and kept secret for centuries, though it turned out to be ineffective and only capable of producing smoke. Its not BS that its been kept secret, its completely plausible and do to the fact that most powers so far haven't adopted gunpowder over the use of Magicka there is little reason for them to try and steal it.

edit: and lets not forget that the instance cannons are mentioned is in a joke book where the Breton's were joking about their victory over Sentinel. Your waaaay overblowing the cannons.

[Kaylee Campbell]

If Sentinel can advance artillery as quickly as the Europeans despite never fighting against it themselves (I doubt it would have progressed as it did if the Europeans weren't constantly using cannons against one another or against outsiders), I think it's plausible that Taneth can advance fortifications despite not having actually being attacked by cannons themselves. Besides, surely they'd have been familiar enough with cannons over the years, with all the conflicts, that they'd know how to stop them. And that stopping magical bombardment can work more or less the same way.

I've been trying to hold back on doing more underhanded things in the RP because it'd hurt others. I'm actually a little hurt to know that the other side won't settle for anything but steamrolling the Confederation and Knights with minimal casualties. I'm not upset about losing, I'm upset about how everything the Confederation and Knights do amounts to nothing, and at in the end they don't even manage to put up a decent fight. It's like turning the entire RP into a year-long version of "The Red and White Knight on the Black and White Horse," except in this case the Knight and all he cares about dies and his murderer lives happily ever after. And a little future internal strife in Hammerfell doesn't count as "amounting to something".

I'm also a little hurt knowing that I'm indirectly responsible because I tried to push for peace. Next time I'd like to be warned ahead of time that you'd kill off your own character and make everything a lot worse than it was just so war can resume.

[Red Bevinz]

Because that's what the Star Forts were for. Had there been no cannons, there would have been no Star Forts, but now were just debating for the sake of debating. Like I said, I'm fine if you guys wanna make Taneth a Star Fort, I'm more than willing to make that concession if it makes you guys happy but it doesn't change the lack plausibility that Taneth would just so happen to have a defense design that proves wildly effective against cannons when there's been nothing to demand such a drastic change in the cities design. On the other hand, the time frame for advancements of cannons in our timeline fits that of Sentinels and their application in Sentinels navy coupled with the fact Sentinel was a naval power would push for better and more advanced design in my opinion.

It's hard to imagine that the idea didn't just come to mind because we decided to apply the cannons in the field. By now it feels like were just trying to make it so that the Yokudan's can't use the advantage given so that the Knights can have a 'fairer' chance at winning. I could definitely see new designs be created after the fall of Taneth at the hands of the Yokudan's cannon supplemented army, but given we've not used them in sieges before and the tight time period I don't see how Taneth having that sort of design just because.

But like I said, all that aside, its cool because cannons simply aren't the focal point of my strategy. Star design is fine, like IB said all we can do now is nit pick.

It sounds to me like you're saying "This is why this shouldn't be...x y z...but it's OKAY i guess..." Well the truth is there are plenty of anachronistic things on both sides, Napoleonic artillery being one of them. Simply counting from the cannon's conception in Tamriel's war, several hundred years and just saying "ok by now they get these sort of cannons" isn't necessarily what would happen either. There's also the issue of the number of cannons. 450 cannons is the number a 19th century army would have when wars were fought with armies numbering in the hundreds of thousands. So i mean we can point things out too if it comes to that. There are plenty technological achronisms to go around that we ourselves have brought in let alone what TES military lore is in general.

Next, do you realize what 450 19th century cannons would do to a typical regular straight wall? I think having a unique design for Taneth in order to even make the siege balanced is kind of required. But maybe I could be wrong? If everyone wants regular ol cannon [censored] victim walls we can go with that too if it's everyone's meow.

Anyway it's nice people are still passioned by this plot and I hope we go through with it. Better to discuss ideas now than mid RP.

[ShOrty]

I'd just like to add that any mage in his right mind would not try to take down a wall with destruction magick. Using alteration would be a much much better choice. No wall can stand up to having it's main supports transmuted from stone to sand.

Also, I say who gives a [censored] about the walls and the cannons. Give Taneth thick normal walls, they'll last up against cannons. Anyways it doesn't matter if the walls can stop cannon fire at all, that's not even the main plan so it's kind of like saying "The guy two feet in front of me has a sniper rifle and a really sharp long knife, I'll put on a kevlar vest and turn around, that'll save me."

The only thing cannon proof walls will do is ensure that Taneth starves to death before the siege happens.

[Josephine Gowing]

There are definitely some strong opinions on the topic. I think we should definitely go with the Taneth Siege. There is too much at stake to just let go now.

Please tell me 450 is not seriously being taken as the number of cannons being fielded. Can you possibly fathom how much it would cost to transport 450 cannons, their baggage, ammunition(closely guarded secret ammunition!), crews, and horses ALLL the way from Sentinel down to Taneth? The desert must take a toll, as will raids from bandits and the enemy. And they aren't even the focus of the invasion plan?

Here's something else to consider: in Skyrim there is a quest where

Spoiler

you help track down a redguard woman who betrayed Taneth, causing it to fall to the Dominion. At one point an Alik'r warrior says overtly that Taneth would have been able to hold out in siege against the Dominion indefinItely.

If Taneth can stand up indefinitely to an army as magically powerful as the Dominion's, what hope is magic really?

[Jon O]

Crimson you seem to be overdoing the bit about the "ineffectiveness" of magic. It can't be effective. I'm not one in favor of suiting up Taneth to balance things. Squid knew about Rox's death before hand (not blaming anything on him here) and peace was killed in the first thread of the RP. If you are afraid of your character dying because you think the fight isn't fair or the other side has too much ammunition, then pull him out of there and say he went home. We're not forcing you to kill your character. As for the walls, I think it ought to be a bit more normal.

Dominion military is largely composed of goblins, by the way. They aren't anything too special.

[Alexandra Ryan]

Dominion military is largely composed of goblins, by the way. They aren't anything too special.

But that shows that Taneth has the ability to withstand repeated wave style horde attacks with overpowering magickal support

[Shelby McDonald]

But that shows that Taneth has the ability to withstand repeated wave style horde attacks with overpowering magickal support

200 years later?

[Janette Segura]

Crimson you seem to be overdoing the bit about the "ineffectiveness" of magic. It can't be effective. I'm not one in favor of suiting up Taneth to balance things. Squid knew about Rox's death before hand (not blaming anything on him here) and peace was killed in the first thread of the RP. If you are afraid of your character dying because you think the fight isn't fair or the other side has too much ammunition, then pull him out of there and say he went home. We're not forcing you to kill your character. As for the walls, I think it ought to be a bit more normal.

Dominion military is largely composed of goblins, by the way. They aren't anything too special.

I don't mind my character dying, not with what I've got planned for him. He's a devout Knight of the Nine, if you strike him down he shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. Or at least more powerful than he previously was.

I've never heard of the 4E Dominion using Goblins. Yes historically the Altmer have used goblins but there's been nothing suggesting that the modern Thalmor ever did during the Great War.

[Cat Haines]

200 years later?

What really would have changed? Taneth has had ample time to prepare for warfare with the Yokudans, ever since Haroun called himself an Emperor

Has any thought gone into relations between Haroun and the Barcas? I'm interested to see what reason Bomilkar can find to stay allied with the man who failed to protect his daughter Roxanna. Especially with the culprits unclear. I can even see renewed hostilities breaking out between their peoples.

Women have a way of getting between men like that.

[kristy dunn]

If we have to model the siege of Taneth off of something historical, might I suggest the siege of Constantinople in 1453? That would make a fun RP with the giant but primitive cannons knocking down huge and ancient walls, and then the innovative tactics on both sides, and the desperate stopgap measures of the Byzantines/Eastern Romans (as I know how much IB objects to the term Byzantine).

On the subject of Roxanna's death, Tidus and Story came up with that and then asked me to roleplay the killing since I had a spy in the area.

[christelle047]

Also, I say who gives a [censored] about the walls and the cannons. Give Taneth thick normal walls, they'll last up against cannons. Anyways it doesn't matter if the walls can stop cannon fire at all, that's not even the main plan so it's kind of like saying "The guy two feet in front of me has a sniper rifle and a really sharp long knife, I'll put on a kevlar vest and turn around, that'll save me."

Ahhh, I see you attend the "Woolymammoth Institute for the Creation of Impossibly Obscure anologies". How was your first lesson?

I don't mind my character dying, not with what I've got planned for him. He's a devout Knight of the Nine, if you strike him down he shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. Or at least more powerful than he previously was.

I've never heard of the 4E Dominion using Goblins. Yes historically the Altmer have used goblins but there's been nothing suggesting that the modern Thalmor ever did during the Great War.

Let this guy win because he always references Star Wars but not in a blatantly obvious way.

Also: 450 cannons? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqyixwqiCag

[Charlie Ramsden]

If we have to model the siege of Taneth off of something historical, might I suggest the siege of Constantinople in 1453? That would make a fun RP with the giant but primitive cannons knocking down huge and ancient walls, and then the innovative tactics on both sides, and the desperate stopgap measures of the Byzantines/Eastern Romans (as I know how much IB objects to the term Byzantine).

On the subject of Roxanna's death, Tidus and Story came up with that and then asked me to roleplay the killing since I had a spy in the area.

Was kind of hoping for that and more primitive cannons like the "bombards" sticking more in line with the medieval aspect of the lore but they insisted on 19th century Napoleonic cannons. I mean if they felt strongly about it wutevs but it's kind of like bringing in a k98 rifle to the war of 1812.

[James Wilson]

Also: 450 cannons? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqyixwqiCag

And I see you attend the "Werewolf & Vampire Institute for Communication through Links."

[Avril Churchill]

And I see you attend the "Werewolf & Vampire Institute for Communication through Links."

Well worth it IMO. Adds a certain clarity to posts.

[Eibe Novy]

Ahhh, I see you attend the "Woolymammoth Institute for the Creation of Impossibly Obscure anologies". How was your first lesson?

wut? o.0