[Devils Cheek]

1) The cannons should probably be damn bombards. No, I was not aware they were 19th century cannons. They will be leveled down to bombards.

After all this time with cannons being around they should not only be bombard. We went from an expediant advancement in tech back to absoloutly none. We need to find a medieum if anything else but to have them not advance at all from the time of Tiber Septim all the way to the end of the Third Era is too much. I'm fine working together and even appeasemant but we lets at least be fair.

edit: Cuvlrins or Basilisks at least.

[Jack Walker]

What's wrong with bombards? I mean you said the main thrust of the attack won't even be the cannons so what differences does it make?

[Johnny]

I say for consistency's sake, Hammerfell's gunpowder weapons (and by extension Taneth's walls) should be subject to the same technological stasis that the rest of Tamriel is subject to. It'd be kind of inconsistent for Hammerfell to have been making better and better weapons while the rest of the world hasn't made any progress.

Edit: Just to be clear, at this point it has more to do with like what PFA said, the spirit of TES.

[Ashley Campos]

What's wrong with bombards? I mean you said the main thrust of the attack won't even be the cannons so what differences does it make?

I say for consistency's sake, Hammerfell's gunpowder weapons (and by extension Taneth's walls) should be subject to the same technological stasis that the rest of Tamriel is subject to. It'd be kind of inconsistent for Hammerfell to have been making better and better weapons while the rest of the world hasn't made any progress.

Edit: Just to be clear, at this point it has more to do with like what PFA said, the spirit of TES.

Whats wrong with Culverins or Basilisks? both are Medieval cannons and are anything but super amazing cannons, but it would represent an increase in technology since, as I've mentioned multiple times, there’s ample reason for Sentinel to put research into upgrading cannons. We've stated time and time again the cannons were fielding are adaptations of the naval cannons, and to point out once more, the joke about Sentinels cannons was that they were so heavy they sunk their own ships. I've been more than willing to work with and appease so far, I honestly expect some of that returned.

I'm honestly starting to feel like our hospitality is being taken advantage here. I've been more than understanding and fair in dealing with how our forces are handled in the RP, Crimson you of all people should know this and for consistency sake as you say, we shouldn't have had to change at all since the cannons have been clearly defined since the beginning of the RP. The fact that no one realized what they were made up to be gives me the impression that our sheets weren't looked at. Surely your not going to tell me that you can't agree to allow us to have a slightly better cannon based on the many logical reasons given as to why there would be some advancement. Aside from that, the cannon is really the only major advantage we have to combat your battlemages. It baffles me how you literally have living breathing moving artillery pieces of your own that can change the weather, cast fire balls and lighting as well as create barrier fields yet the focus is on our cannons.

While my plan for the siege doesn't rely on cannons, it certainly does force me to reevaluate their role given were being dialed back. Culverins/Basilisks would be a healthy medium that represents some adaption without the overblown stomping power the cannons would have in later time periods. We're not talking about mobile field cannons here, but large, heavy emplacements designed specifically for sieges. I don't feel like were really asking that much of you. If you still believe that your at a total disadvantage then don't complain when I bring to bear all of our bombards to bear a single section of your walls.

As for advancement in the rest of the world, have you seen the ship designs from Oblivion and Skyrim? Imperial ships show a giant leap in ship building compared with the general setting and magicka has really nullified the need for the advancement of gunpowder weapons. The whole point of the Raga developing alternative methods is because of their prejudice against Eastern Tamrelic Magicka. Why would the Empire want to steal gunpowder when they're the culture that brough about the advent of the battlemage, who has numerous clear advantages over using something as mundane as exploding powder. Even then, the only advancement we've made was developing a slightly better siege engine that would force you to reconsider just how to defend your city. Your all acting like the Yokudan Empire is walking around with AK-47's gunning down defenseless knights who have nothing but swords.

While I don't mind altering things to increase the enjoyment of all of us, its getting to the point where your practically nullifying the only tangible advantage given to us and its a little irksome.

edit:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/16th_Century_Artillerie.jpgcompared to http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Bombard_from_XV_century.PNG (Bombards)

[Breautiful]

Well I honestly just wanted to know what the difference would be in your mind. And Tidus I don't know if you did that on purpose but that's the tiniest chode of a bombard I have ever seen.

THIS is more what we were referring to:

http://harness-and-array.blogspot.com/2010/10/bombard.html

http://xenophongroup.com/montjoie/cannon4.gif

http://mountaineergamer.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/great-bombard.jpg

http://community.active.com/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/38-2980-1220/GaleRhodes2.jpg

And furthermore I was the one that stated the advancement should be in the use of fire arms.

http://www.leeds.ac.uk/ims/gfx/fieldsofconflict/1400handcannon.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/deadliestwarrior/images/c/ca/Hand-cannon_14263_lg.gif

So my issue was never with how good or what not the cannons were. Bombards are still very dangerous. They just fit more into the medieval theme of things. Culverins and Basilisks were cannons that existed and were used during the era of Pike and Shot...something very unlike the type of warfare done in our medieval setting. The advancement argument doesn't really stick either. Those cannons were developed because of sea warfare as you said and that was motivated because of the spice trade to India and the trade to the Americas. The battles in the Illiac bay are like splash fights compared to what happened to motivate the changes and constructions of these cannons. Next, these advancements would come to exist because of cannon v cannon engagements. Think about it, nobody developed a better sword until the guy they were fighting made a better one first. If you have a sword and everyone else is still using pointy sticks, your advancement isn't going to be motivated all that fast.

Edit: Look for example the advancements China made with THEIR cannons. Nobody else around them had cannons and their use actually stagnated. The Europeans that used gunpowder later than them over shadowed them immensely because there was actual cannon v cannon engagements. China's oldest known cannon dates to 1290...and their cannons during the Opium Wars in the 19th century were a joke compared to the European ones. I'm sorry but there's just no argument you can bring that will stand up to that. If a whole nation like China couldn't advance their cannons in five hundred years all that much, why would a single city be able to?

In any case i'm wondering what exactly the culverin is going to be able to do better than the bombard. Both will knock down walls, but only one keeps with the medieval theme we're trying to maintain here. Now concerning mages, what do you imagine these guys being able to do? It's not like they'll be flinging fireballs from ontop of the walls tirelessly or putting up shields to cover the entire wall nor would I even waste them in that manner. Mages will only come in handy really once you get into hand to hand combat ranges. Aryon making it a little misty isn't exactly controlling much of the weather either. I'm not going to be creating lightning storms to rip your ranks apart or rains so heavy all your gunpowder gets soaked because it's kind of cheesy (although not that impossible.)

Here's the scenarios I see playing out. 19th century cannons will happen as soon as Taneth is a star fort. When that happens the cannons will be more or less useless to the walls. 19th century cannons are cheesy and are technology from a time when people were lining up in infantry blocks and trading musket fire. I don't know why you are so hell bent on it. Story, no offense to him, doesn't really have the whole history grasp thing going. And as much as a historian claws his eyes out at seeing Scots in kilts during Braveheart, I would cringe at seeing 19th century cannons in such an RP. I also think you and him underestimate how effective a bombard actually is. They come in different shapes and sizes. The only advantage really (referring to Culverins/Basilisk) is reload time and range but guess what. Nobody else has cannons to reload and shoot back at you and your cannons outrage anything we could possibly have anyway. It's an aesthetic issue, not one of function. But if you insist on it we'll do that with the star fort. I already have a lore reason of why there would be that shape to the city and it isn't anymore unreasonable than half the crap anyone else has written.

The other scenario is us using more medieval-esque cannons, and we have a regular city wall. This actually works in your advantage because the bombards will be more effective to regular city walls than 19th century cannons would ever be to a star fort. I'm your "enemy" and i'm telling you this right here. You've told me that I need to admit when I am wrong. Well that advice goes both ways. If you and story are the only ones here bent on having 19th century cannons, hell if me and wooly agree on anything, you know you gotta be wrong. And again bombards + flat walls works in your advantage vs 19th century cannons + star fort. And no way in hell are you getting 19th century cannons vs flat walls. I'm telling you right now you won't have an RP. Crimson won't post there, I won't post there, doubt if wooly will. It'll be you and story posting about knocking down some flat walls with 19th century cannons.

Now you can get mad at me for telling the truth or you can realize you're in the wrong, NOT get all sour graqes about it, see that i'm giving you an advantage, and draw up a damn map so we can finally get back to what we all love doing.


EDIT: Also just because people didn't know what exactly Napoleon era cannons are, doesn't mean your sheets were ignored. For the record I was the one that has always stated the cannons should be bombards so at least give me credit for that much. But most people don't know the difference. "oh this looks old" and they just accept. Not your fault but understand that much.

2nd Edit: If you are worried about balancing I plan on having somewhere between 30,000 and 40,000 (at most) total defenders vs your 70,000.

[Luis Reyma]

Have it your way IB, like I said if you insist then I'll desist as long as you guys are happy. Bombards it is .

edit: That last part wasn't necessary.

[Chantelle Walker]

I'm glad that's out of the way and put to rest.

Now let's think about what Taneth itself looks like. Looking at its location on the map, I imagine Taneth county has an enormous graqe crop and huge tracts of vineyards. The gentle slope of the land down from the mountains to the sea creates a convection of warm air close to the ground that is great for growing graqes.

What resources are nearby for building homes? Are the houses arranged in circular clusters in the Redguard style or is it organiZed in rows like the imperials? How tall are the walls?

Is it all just a Thalmor plot?

[Astargoth Rockin' Design]

Not trying to start it up again, but just glanced through a few of the posts. IB, I don't think Tidus is asking for much. Culverins seem very plausible if you ask me, and I doubt that in over 5 centuries the Yokudans couldn't have advanced slightly from the most primitive and basic bombards. It's not that hard for someone to say "Hey, lets put wheels on this thing and make it roll," or "Let put some kind of ratchet and pinion system on it to make aiming easier," and then make it happen.

[Lisha Boo]

I'm glad that's out of the way and put to rest.

Now let's think about what Taneth itself looks like. Looking at its location on the map, I imagine Taneth county has an enormous graqe crop and huge tracts of vineyards. The gentle slope of the land down from the mountains to the sea creates a convection of warm air close to the ground that is great for growing graqes.

What resources are nearby for building homes? Are the houses arranged in circular clusters in the Redguard style or is it organiZed in rows like the imperials? How tall are the walls?

Is it all just a Thalmor plot?

All very important questions and all questions I'd love to answered myself. I'd say Taneths architecture would be in Redguard style and that's a wonderful anolysis of the land there Tayroc.

Not trying to start it up again, but just glanced through a few of the posts. IB, I don't think Tidus is asking for much. Culverins seem very plausible if you ask me, and I doubt that in over 5 centuries the Yokudans couldn't have advanced slightly from the most primitive and basic bombards. It's not that hard for someone to say "Hey, lets put wheels on this thing and make it roll," or "Let put some kind of ratchet and pinion system on it to make aiming easier," and then make it happen.

Sometimes appeasemant is easier. Its really not alot to ask for, but IB sees no merit in my argument or lore centric reasons for advancement and I'm tired of the argument. It can't ever be said we were unreasonable.

[Rob Davidson]

Have it your way IB, like I said if you insist then I'll desist as long as you guys are happy. Bombards it is .

edit: That last part wasn't necessary.

It's not having it "my way IB" it's what almost everyone else is saying too. I'm just giving you the historical reasons why culverins and basilisks were developed. Basilisks and Culverins are products of cannon v cannon warfare and used during the era of pike and shot (meaning muskets.) Honestly I wasn't even going to argue the point until other people spoke up. To me it's irrelevant. But it is a bit "out of the era." This is the sour graqes part I was talking about too. Agreeing but feeling coerced into doing so doesn't gain anybody anything. Have whatever you want as far as i'm concerned but don't complain when the same is done in return. I just don't want to hear "the RP would have gone this way if we had this."

I'm glad that's out of the way and put to rest.

Now let's think about what Taneth itself looks like. Looking at its location on the map, I imagine Taneth county has an enormous graqe crop and huge tracts of vineyards. The gentle slope of the land down from the mountains to the sea creates a convection of warm air close to the ground that is great for growing graqes.

What resources are nearby for building homes? Are the houses arranged in circular clusters in the Redguard style or is it organiZed in rows like the imperials? How tall are the walls?

Is it all just a Thalmor plot?

I was going to have a heavy "stone" theme to everything considering the proximity to the mountain chain. I know, very creative.

Your face is just a Thalmor plot.

Not trying to start it up again, but just glanced through a few of the posts. IB, I don't think Tidus is asking for much. Culverins seem very plausible if you ask me, and I doubt that in over 5 centuries the Yokudans couldn't have advanced slightly from the most primitive and basic bombards. It's not that hard for someone to say "Hey, lets put wheels on this thing and make it roll," or "Let put some kind of ratchet and pinion system on it to make aiming easier," and then make it happen.

But see that's where the mistake comes in. Culverin's AREN'T just bombards with wheels and a ratchet system. And again we can look at the advances that the Chinese cannons made. Barley any because they had no rival to trade cannon fire with, sort of like Sentinel. And again i'm asking what difference it would make that it is so important to have that?

All very important questions and all questions I'd love to answered myself. I'd say Taneths architecture would be in Redguard style and that's a wonderful anolysis of the land there Tayroc.



Sometimes appeasemant is easier. Its really not alot to ask for, but IB sees no merit in my argument or lore centric reasons for advancement and I'm tired of the argument. It can't ever be said we were unreasonable.

Ok if all you want is wheels and a ratchet on your cannons, have bombards with that. If that's the only difference between bombards and culverins/basilisks then have bombards with wheels and ratchets and just call them bombards. Deal?

[Isabel Ruiz]

IB, just drop the matter and move on, arguments have been presented and I'm done reiterating myself. we can debate it all day and our debates always end the same so whats the point anymore? The cannons will be bombard esq, done and done.

[Andrew Lang]

I'm not arguing since there really is no argument to be had. I'm trying to reason with you to find a middle ground that'll make you happy and everyone else happy too.

[Philip Lyon]

I've seen little reasoning the past posts or even an attempt a compromise.

I proposed a middle ground. I suggested Culverin's or Basilisks, which provide a healthy medium between primitive cannons and later cannons that included a slight increase in range and reload time. Your suggesting that in several hundred years that no advancements be made despite constant warfare in the Illiac and the need for the Raga to come up with something to counter the power of mages, which could easily be seen as an investment in cannons. You claim there would be no need for advancement because no one else has cannons, but when you have a ship augmented with battlemages that can cast fireballs at greater range than you can shoot your bow your going to attempt and do something to negate that threat. Advancing in longer ranged cannons on the Illiac to supplement Raga ships would give them a range advantage and decrease the need for getting in too close to ships who have walking flame throwers on board.

The argument for advancement has, and remains that they are in response to the lack of mages.

[Russell Davies]

But see that's where the mistake comes in. Culverin's AREN'T just bombards with wheels and a ratchet system. And again we can look at the advances that the Chinese cannons made. Barley any because they had no rival to trade cannon fire with, sort of like Sentinel. And again i'm asking what difference it would make that it is so important to have that?

But Tamriel isn't our world. It's alright to base some things off of what's happened in our history, but ultimately when it comes down to the fine details it's up to us to decide what happens, not our history. And if there's not that much difference then why is it so important that we not have them?

Ok if all you want is wheels and a ratchet on your cannons, have bombards with that. If that's the only difference between bombards and culverins/basilisks then have bombards with wheels and ratchets and just call them bombards. Deal?

I'm alright with that. A form of refined bombard on wheels with a ratcheted aiming system sounds like a good middle ground to me. Faster reload time, slightly greater distance, and easier to aim seems like little to ask for 5 centuries of advancement.

[Vickey Martinez]

I'm alright with that. A form of refined bombard on wheels with a ratcheted aiming system sounds like a good middle ground to me. Faster reload time, slightly greater distance, and easier to aim seems like little to ask for 5 centuries of advancement.

I agree. It seems the culverin, as IB pointed out, doesn't go with the whole time period. The bombards will be refined and better than normal to show some advancement, but that will be it. The whole culverins thing and all that will be dumped. No star fort either. Though war isn't fair I don't really see how the Redguards could fairly get THAT advanced cannons, so we'll leave it at advanced bombards and mortars and all that, which are actually still pretty effective.

^This.

[Marina Leigh]

I'm alright with that. A form of refined bombard on wheels with a ratcheted aiming system sounds like a good middle ground to me. Faster reload time, slightly greater distance, and easier to aim seems like little to ask for 5 centuries of advancement.

Thats basically what I was asking for in the Culverine.

[Lew.p]

I've seen little reasoning the past posts or even an attempt a compromise.

I proposed a middle ground. I suggested Culverin's or Basilisks, which provide a healthy medium between primitive cannons and later cannons that included a slight increase in range and reload time. Your suggesting that in several hundred years that no advancements be made despite constant warfare in the Illiac and the need for the Raga to come up with something to counter the power of mages, which could easily be seen as an investment in cannons. You claim there would be no need for advancement because no one else has cannons, but when you have a ship augmented with battlemages that can cast fireballs at greater range than you can shoot your bow your going to attempt and do something to negate that threat. Advancing in longer ranged cannons on the Illiac to supplement Raga ships would give them a range advantage and decrease the need for getting in too close to ships who have walking flame throwers on board.

The argument for advancement has, and remains that they are in response to the lack of mages.

What is the point of wanting range and reload time though for an RP? What difference does it make? How exactly would we even consider the difference? I mean isn't it really an aesthetic/chronological issue at this point?

Nobody said "no advancements." I stated to compare and contrast the development of Chinese cannons vs European ones. The Chinese had no rivals in that field so there were very few advancements...just like Sentinel.

Why do you say "Constant warfare" in the Illiac. When was the last war/battle?

But Tamriel isn't our world. It's alright to base some things off of what's happened in our history, but ultimately when it comes down to the fine details it's up to us to decide what happens, not our history. And if there's not that much difference then why is it so important that we not have them?



I'm alright with that. A form of refined bombard on wheels with a ratcheted aiming system sounds like a good middle ground to me. Faster reload time, slightly greater distance, and easier to aim seems like little to ask for 5 centuries of advancement.

Since Tamriel isn't our world than Starforts are just as likely no?

It isn't really even a "refined bombard." Bombards had wheels for field or even tower use. That's not even the issue. Culverins/basilisks are simply out of the time frame of TES and the whole medieval theme. They were used in the 1600s and onward during the era of pike and shot which was the precursor to the line musketeer formation/warfare.

Thats basically what I was asking for in the Culverine.

Bombards with wheels and ratchets/etc is what was offered to begin with. I think that's a very reasonable offer and since it is what you are 'basically asking for' then we are lacking a disagreement no?

[phil walsh]

What is the point of wanting range and reload time though for an RP? What difference does it make? How exactly would we even consider the difference? I mean isn't it really an aesthetic/chronological issue at this point?

Nobody said "no advancements." I stated to compare and contrast the development of Chinese cannons vs European ones. The Chinese had no rivals in that field so there were very few advancements...just like Sentinel.

Why do you say "Constant warfare" in the Illiac. When was the last war/battle?

The only time the Illiac Bay was truly at peace was after the Warp of the West, which has happened only in the reign of the last Uriel. So, that was the 'last battle' in which Sentinel, Wayrest, Daggerfall and Orsinium conquered nearly all their rivals. Yeah, I'd say hundreds of years of conflict, from before Tiber Septim to the beginning of the late Uriels reign constitutes as constant warfare.

You seem to just ignore the entire point that the Battlemage is the catalyst we've used forever for improvement in alternative means of weaponry. Magick and the Battlemage is what would spur the Raga to come up with alternative means of fighting. However, as I've repeatedly stated, if that's what you want then I'm happy to oblige, the argument comes stems from you continually bringing it back up.

[Paul Rice]

The only time the Illiac Bay was truly at peace was after the Warp of the West, which has happened only in the reign of the last Uriel. So, that was the 'last battle' in which Sentinel, Wayrest, Daggerfall and Orsinium conquered nearly all their rivals. Yeah, I'd say hundreds of years of conflict, from before Tiber Septim to the beginning of the late Uriels reign constitutes as constant warfare.

You seem to just ignore the entire point that the Battlemage is the catalyst we've used forever for improvement in alternative means of weaponry. Magick and the Battlemage is what would spur the Raga to come up with alternative means of fighting. However, as I've repeatedly stated, if that's what you want then I'm happy to oblige, the argument comes stems from you continually bringing it back up.

Listen if you don't disagree then you are the one that keeps bringing up the argument because as far as i'm concerned you are getting what you want with a different name. At this point is semantic. And acting like i'm the one keeping any debate going is a lousy tactic especially considering your replies. I don't know why we can't all be mature about this. Chinese had hundreds of years of conflict too and no cannon rivals so no great leaps like the Europeans.

No 19th century cannons, no culverins and basilisks unless other people show that they want them.

You get bombards with wheels and ratchers and what not, which as you said, is the only difference in your mind between culverins and bombards. It isn't but since that's what you wanted, that's what is being given, and something that was NEVER denied to begin with.

So my question is, what are you arguing about?

[Claire]

Drop.it.

now lets move on.

[Ricky Meehan]

It was already by post 185...but ok...

[Catherine Harte]

That's the point. The argument has been over nothing.

I can look at some purpilish color and call it red or blue, but its still purple-ish. Now let's do this thing.

[Sxc-Mary]

Yeah...pretty much. Everyone happy?

[Casey]

It was already by post 185...but ok...

Your something else, IB, truly heh. I've no desire or want to RP or associate with you anymore. Everyone, have a wonderful time, it was great RPing with the rest of you and I hope to RP with you guys in the future, but I'm done for now.

[CxvIII]

I can look at some purpilish color and call it red or blue, but its still purple-ish. Now let's do this thing.

Wooly man, you [censored] rock!

Oh my goodness.