Who?

That is the strangest thing ever.



Voice actors cost a lot, and their audio files take a lot off disc-space.

Noble savage orcs? Not really. Gortwog aside, in Daggerfall orcs were the sort of bloodthirsty monsters they are in other games. A truly sympathetic view of orcs didn't really happen till Morrowind for TES and Warcraft III for the Warcraft series, both of which were released in 2002. So it's kind of a tie, unless you include the cancelled Warcraft Adventures game, in which case, Warcraft might have won. There's probably earlier favourable portrayals in other sources, but damned if I can think of them.

oh for shakes

They did no such things! All scholars know orcs are nothing but another beast race, goblin-ken no less, and they came to this world through an intergalactic worm hole! All other opinions on the matter should be considered Imperial Propaganda, and be shunned.

Tolkien got the orc word from orkus, which means nasty. So Orcs are nasty, go figure.

Morrowind broke that mold, however.

(From the Daggerfall bestiary, on Orcs)
Some rather eccentric researchers have suggested that the Orcs have a culture as ancient and sophisticated as ours, and that their seeming mindless barbarity is somehow related to rites of passage or tests of courage. It is highly likely that these researchers have never felt the sting of an orc captain's barbed axe.

This implies that they are just as primitive as the Celts when the Romans conquered them.

Which means, only primitive in the eyes of those that believe propaganda.

I have to admit, I felt the same way when I first discovered the Elder Scrolls. I've always played Wood Elves in other games and was used to the Tolkien style Wood Elf. When I first started the vanilla game, I was put off by the Bosmers' appearance.

At least with mods I've been able to make my Bosmer character look and sound more like the type of Wood Elf I am used to. (I'm using a PC voice mod that gives my character a British "Lara Croft" type voice) While I appreciate Elder Scrolls lore, it was just too difficult for me to get attached to a character that had those solid black "insect eyes" and squeaky voice.

Elder scrolls wood elves. They eat LEGOlas for breakfast. Gaenor>Legolas

OP, this thread makes your choice of signature a little ridiculous.

Ah, yes. The two fantasy worlds i love the most. While i consider myself a hardcoe TES fan, i just have to go with Tolkien. He created the stereotype. And i hate Bosmer.

Tolkien did indeed create the stereotypes but he didn't create the concepts. Elves and dwarves predate his work unlike hobbits which were wholely his creation. Why should games always follow his stereotypes?

for so far i know tolkien wasn't the inventor of fantasy, many have been before him, tolkien was the one who probaly (unwanted) give fantasy a hugh boast (being fairly conservatieve in thougths i am sure he doesn't like the fantasy hype around it now, and will turn around in his grave)...

Ofcourse everyone at betheseda will have readed Lord of the Rings, so it's not saying that elves have nothing in common with the Tolkien elves, it's difficult to deny that writers are not infleunced by Tolkien, atleast Betheseda give Elves a total different draw ...

I mean the Altmer, or High Elves are from Nazi Elf Stock, and are on the average proud and arrogant, so proud and arrogant that even Galadriel would cry it out in the next tree ...

Bosmer, they have similiarites to Tolkien's Wood Elves so far that they are both living in Forests, but so far I think Tolkien Wood Elves are more intresting in Feasting all night long while Betheseda has invented a carnivore cannibalistic elven race, with strange and immoral rituals ...

The Dark Elves, the Dark Elves also have not into in coming with normal Dark Elves (like D&D, or even Feist) ... Since this Dark Elves tend not to be evil at all, they are just dark skinned and that is some god deal during the early ages ...

Oh for [censored]s sake, this thread has degenerated into a typical A vs B [censored]. It's not even Lore related, it's "setting" related, or even a popularity contest. The original question isn't Lore related, the guy just asked why things are different, and that's not Lore (lore doesn't explain why devs decided to do things in some way).

I would point out that Tolkien isn't the only point of reference for the development of fantasy. Before Tolkien, there were cultural myths. Much of The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion was based on Scandanavian myth.

TES was definitely influenced by conventional, run-of-the-mill fantasy. After all, Arena was really a very conventional, run-of-the-mill fantasy game. Even the setting of Daggerfall was nothing really special as far as fantasy goes; it was marked for its complex story line and gameplay, not for its setting or lore. Morrowind was the first game in the series to bring lore to a point of focus.

The way I look at it, Morrowind was mostly based on original myths and concepts, not on a derived work like The Lord of the Rings. It carried on the tradition of its predecessors (and conventional fantasy) by having elves, magic, medieval weaponry and so on, but this is an anecdotal similarity. The writers incorporated complex, real-world spiritual concepts into the lore... for example, the state of primordial chaos before the creation of Mundus could be aliked to the Australian Dreamtime. Even the fact that gods such as Lorkhan and Akatosh have myth-parallels in various pantheons could be seen as a real world anologue to cross cultural myths such as Noah (Utnapishtim, Deucalion).

The Elves are not a graceful, pure, immortal race. They are as mortal as the races of Men, albeit with a longer lifespan, and by turns nihilistic, fanatical, and savage. They are not somewhat aloof as the Tolkien elves were - they're outright arrogant and look down on other races as animals. Their overarching philosophy is that the world is a blasphemy created by an act of primordial sin, not a treasure to be preserved. This could be seen as a return to the original vision of the Welsh elves - which were by and large a dark, mysterious and malevolent folk - in combination with other concepts such as physical transcendence.

for so far i have readed Arena was based for a great part on the old Gary Gyax Dungeon and Dragon System ?

Yes I dont mind games being based on cultural myths I just think that just beecause they are in the woods doesnt mean they need to be evil. I also noticed on the elder scrolls site that high elves were the only elves who really looked down on other races and wood elves really cant do that as they are shorter than the other races. Dark Elves maybe because they seem to be based on the ethnocentric ancient chinese society. Note: They were both isolated from outside contact I mean there are mountains separating china from the world as there are mountains separating Morrowind from the rest of Tamirel.

Wood Elves aren't evil....just primitive and cannibalistic.

I wouldn't say that the Bosmer are primitive.

Compared to the other elves they are a little barbaric. But since there has never been a game set in valenwood this might just be the racist propaganda getting to me and the fact that those little buggers really creep me out.

Well, yeah, they're going to seem a little barbaric compared to the other merish races. They kind of are in a sense too but I think it's easy to misconstrue what they're really like when one hears about the details of the Green Pact and Meat Mandate.

I thought that Dance in Fire did a pretty good job of at least showing a little bit more of Valenwood than what you'd get out of one of the Pocket Guides.

Tolkien and his parents were immigrants he brought the stories here from his background of reading the hundreds of books done way before his time.The oldest of the stories dating back thousands of years to Norse Mythology.Lately I continue to see more and more of this Tolkien is the godfather of RPGs,it is simply false.Tolkien's books were published in the US put at the time most of the people that read these stories were the German immigrants,that had grown up on these stories that had been passed from the generations.I guess it is the movies and the MMO's that fuel this Tolkien stuff.But what Tolkien did do was,read tons of books like his in his youth that influenced his works.So all that said,Norse Mythology would be the Main Influence of these games not Tolkien.Please I am tired of hearing this falsehood.Bethesda took the works of the old Scandanavian stories and put their own twists on them.Yes you are right the Bosmer are different.As is so much more.

That's all true. But Tolkien will always be viewed as the father of modern high fantasy, no matter which way you look at it.

I really don't see what's so wrong with that though.

Yes I see your point it doesn't matter.But I love history and it would be a shame for the old stories to not get their dues,or to be lost.

Yes dingo, that's true.