Tolkein Wood Elves vs. Elder Scrolls Wood Elves

Post » Fri May 27, 2011 2:08 pm

I have also since I started playing TES thought that the wood elves did not meet my expectations of a wood elf. First they were all theives or assassins. Second they had really strange voices. Third they were midgets compared to everyone else in Tamriel and being that other larger races were just as agile I didnot see why that was necessary. I expected more like a Legolas kind of wood elf. They seemed stronger, more powerful, more likely to match the other races in the Lord of the Rings Universe than the Tamrielic wood elves. What do you guys think?
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Natalie Taylor
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 5:42 pm

I have also since I started playing TES thought that the wood elves did not meet my expectations of a wood elf. First they were all theives or assassins. Second they had really strange voices. Third they were midgets compared to everyone else in Tamriel and being that other larger races were just as agile I didnot see why that was necessary. I expected more like a Legolas kind of wood elf. They seemed stronger, more powerful, more likely to match the other races in the Lord of the Rings Universe than the Tamrielic wood elves. What do you guys think?



MK avoided the Tolkien stereotype ON PURPOSE when he created lore for the bosmer. The Bosmer are carniverous little blighters, and are so out of strict religious tenets.

They are shorter, probably because of their diets. :P (Bugs, Meat, Rotten milk juice, etc...)

I suggest taking this to the Lore forum though. You will get a much better turnout.
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michael danso
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 7:55 pm

MK avoided the Tolkien stereotype ON PURPOSE when he created lore for the bosmer. The Bosmer are carniverous little blighters, and are so out of strict religious tenets.

They are shorter, probably because of their diets. :P (Bugs, Meat, Rotten milk juice, etc...)

I suggest taking this to the Lore forum though. You will get a much better turnout.

who is MK?
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vanuza
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 12:40 pm

who is MK?



Micheal Kirkbride

He penned a GREAT deal of the morrowind lore, including the 36 lessons of vivec.
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Noraima Vega
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 7:03 pm

Micheal Kirkbride

He penned a GREAT deal of the morrowind lore, including the 36 lessons of vivec.

I still dont know who vivec is because I have barely played morrowind. I guess he is one of the tribunal Btw I am sure the bosmer eat plants after all they are wood elves.
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Breanna Van Dijk
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 12:32 pm

I still dont know who vivec is because I have barely played morrowind. I guess he is one of the tribunal



Oh dear.... Now that this is in Lore... Oh dear..


Ok--

Vivec is the magical hermaphrodite archetype. He created 36 lessons for his champion, nerevar, (and thru extension, the Nerevarine.) (They also contain a ciphered hidden message.) MK created this character, the tribunal, AND the associated literature. He also adapted the Bosmer heavily to draw them FAAAR away from the Tolkien stereotype, and did this on purpose. MK has "His own ideas" on how a fantasy universe should be, and I congratulate him on this. The "unexpectedness" of it makes it unique, and memorable.
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Sophh
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 2:43 pm

I still dont know who vivec is because I have barely played morrowind. I guess he is one of the tribunal

Yea. He's the guy living in the big locked palace in Vivec City. If you finish the game you'll have to meet him eventually...
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Charleigh Anderson
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 11:23 am

Yea. He's the guy living in the big locked palace in Vivec City. If you finish the game you'll have to meet him eventually...

ok I know I was asking the questions but any ideas on my actual topic lol
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Dalia
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 5:56 pm

No, the Bosmer must hold to the "http://www.imperial-library.info/pge/aldmeridominion.shtml" which forbids them from eating plants, or from harvesting plant materials. (They do however, buy plant materials from other races.)

The same religious tenet forces Bosmer to eat their slain adversaries within a fixed period of time after they have killed them. It is one of the reasons the bosmer do not like to go to war, and only do so when they are very hungry.

"They are exclusively and religiously carnivorous. They cannot, or will not, eat anything that is plant-based. They eat game, beastfolk, each other, or meats imported from other regions. This part of the Green Pact is known as the Meat Mandate, and, among its other rules, it requires that a fallen enemy must be eaten completely before three days pass. The family members of the warrior that slew the enemy may help him with his meal. Needless to say, the Wood Elves do not like to engage in large battles if they have not undergone a suitable starvation period.

"Though they are excellent archers, the Green Pact forces their bowyers and fletchers to use bone or similar materials, or to buy bows and arrows from other cultures. The use of woodcrafts created by another race is not forbidden, nor is the sale of their own Valenwood timber as long as it is collected by a non-Bosmeri.

"The Wood Elves, of course, cannot smoke anything of a vegetable nature. Bone pipes are common, however, and are filled with caterpillars or tree grubs.

"For a brief time the Colovian armies used Wood Elf archers, as in the War of Rihad two years past. The Bosmer proved to be too undisciplined and prone to desertion for further use. They would sometimes walk into the shade of a single tree and vanish. Their forest-coupling skills are remarkable. The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding."

"At the trading posts of the Empire, the Wood Elves become very happy. Some creations of carpentry delight them to no end. Most of it has never occurred to them. They bring their own trade items: hides, river pearls, finger-bone charms made from the still-magically-charged hands of their dead wizards. They often buy woodcrafts that they have no use for or whose use they never bother to find out. Some of the bravest Wood Elven warriors use wagon wheels as shields, or as (they think) impressive headgear.



"While sometimes amusing, the Bosmer have a bestial side. They can resort to animal shapes if they need to, or water. Their most dreaded transformation is the Wild Hunt, which killed King Borgas for the "iniquities" of his Alessian faith. The Wild Hunt is a pack of shifting forest-demons and animal-gods, thousands strong, which sweeps through the countryside killing everything its path. The Wood Elves do not like to talk about the Hunt, and I gather they do not feel proud of this power at all-Gomini, my Bosmer companion of late, tells me that the Hunt is used for justice, but that also, "every monster in the world that has ever been comes from a previous Hunt. Those Bosmer that go Wild, they do not return.""

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Matthew Aaron Evans
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 5:21 pm

No, the Bosmer must hold to the "http://www.imperial-library.info/pge/aldmeridominion.shtml" which forbids them from eating plants, or from harvesting plant materials. (They do however, buy plant materials from other races.)

The same religious tenet forces Bosmer to eat their slain adversaries within a fixed period of time after they have killed them. It is one of the reasons the bosmer do not like to go to war, and only do so when they are very hungry.

If this stuff is supposed to happen then why doesnt it. I havent seen glarthir try and eat any body and I could of sworn he was eying that grass next to the chapel in skingrad
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Johnny
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 6:20 pm

If this stuff is supposed to happen then why doesnt it. I havent seen glarthir try and eat any body and I could of sworn he was eying that grass next to the chapel in skingrad



Imagine the number of people who would complain if they couldnt make use of the UMPTEEN MILLION kinds of mushroom growing cyrrodiil! :P
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Donatus Uwasomba
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 11:28 pm

If this stuff is supposed to happen then why doesnt it.

A combination of game mechanics, Imperial law and Bosmer that are lax on their beliefs...
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chinadoll
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 9:44 pm

obvious troll is obvious.

i say thank god for the differences. TES would be far less interesting if it held to the traditional fantasy crap. hooray for short meat eating elves, tall dwarves and hermaphrodite warrior poets.
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Becky Palmer
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 11:51 am

Wile we are on the subject. Is there anything else that's not so clish? about TES races and let's say LOTR races?

Altmer/Highelfs - Both are kinda "gracefull" right, but Altmer has a more japanese kind of architecture right?
Imperials are pretty much the same right?
Bosmer, being half nord half Altmer is kinda unique.
Orcs are a civilized race not walking bent over.

And more I guess.
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Alexandra walker
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 8:53 pm

I have also since I started playing TES thought that the wood elves did not meet my expectations of a wood elf. First they were all theives or assassins. Second they had really strange voices. Third they were midgets compared to everyone else in Tamriel and being that other larger races were just as agile I didnot see why that was necessary. I expected more like a Legolas kind of wood elf. They seemed stronger, more powerful, more likely to match the other races in the Lord of the Rings Universe than the Tamrielic wood elves. What do you guys think?


Tolkien's elves in general were ciphers for man before the primal Fall, so they were stronger, quicker, smarter, more virtuous than man. He wanted to restore the glory of traditional elves, to change them from folkloric notions of little fairies hiding under rocks into more like the angelic and mysterious light elves of norse legend. Wood elves in other settings followed suit, somewhat, but they were more like enlightened treehuggers who could handle a bow and lived off berries because they were often so absurdly fruity. TES bosmer subverts this idea by turning them into cannibalistic savages with a whimsical streak (although within the games, there's little except the whimsical streak represented).

Altmer/Highelfs - Both are kinda "gracefull" right, but Altmer has a more japanese kind of architecture right?
Imperials are pretty much the same right?
Bosmer, being half nord half Altmer is kinda unique.
Orcs are a civilized race not walking bent over.

1. No.
2. Same as what?
3. Bosmer aren't a cross between Altmer and Nords. Or that's only a minor strand of their genetic makeup. Aldmer and Nedes, maybe, but the Bosmer have been their own race since the dawn, as implied by http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/clanmother.shtml.
4. True, doesn't make them all that different from several other Tolkien-inspired settings. Notably, Warcraft. What does make them different is that they changed when their god passed through the digestive tract of another god.
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Dean Brown
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 7:48 am

MK avoided the Tolkien stereotype ON PURPOSE when he created lore for the bosmer. The Bosmer are carniverous little blighters, and are so out of strict religious tenets.


If that was the goal, he shouldn't have called them elves. If he calls them elves, people WILL expect them to meet stereotypes.

But anyway, I dislike both, they're both elves, and I have seen very few types of elves I like. But I like Tolkein's wood elves slightly better than the Elder Scrolls ones. While just as boring, they are at least lest annoying and disgusting.

True, doesn't make them all that different from several other Tolkien-inspired settings. Notably, Warcraft. What does make them different is that they changed when their god passed through the digestive tract of another god.


The part about them that is original is also the part that makes no sense no matter how you look at it.

In the end, while the Elder Scrolls tries to defy stereotypes, I personally find it usually does a pretty poor job on it. Usually, the results either do not make sense, or turn out even less likable than their generic counterparts.
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liz barnes
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 4:23 pm

If that was the goal, he shouldn't have called them elves. If he calls them elves, people WILL expect them to meet stereotypes.

Elves both before and after Tolkien have never conformed to single definitions. Elves aren't stereotypes, they're tropes. Stereotypes are what happen when people can't come up with their own creative interpretations. Usually elves represent something fundumentally different yet similar to man, and because of this, can usually be recognisable, even if the word "elf" is never overtly used or pointy-ears overtly discussed (though I haven't read it since high school, Tad William's Memory, Sorrow and Scorn did this, as does R. A. Bakker in The Prince of Nothing, with the more alien Nonmen, who aren't elves but fulfill the same function). Bosmer, as I explained earlier, are a subversion that relies as much on the existence of the traditional interpretation as it does on its own ideas. Like the idea of the anti-hero, it shines the spotlight on the very romanticised notions of what we should expect these things to look like. I.E. well-mannered, fruity, tree-hugging rangers, in a similar vein to well-mannered, fruity, tree-hugging druids.

The part about them that is original is also the part that makes no sense no matter how you look at it.

In which case, you haven't looked at it in many ways.
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Lawrence Armijo
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 5:23 pm

If something is built to be the opposite of something else so as to reject it, in the end, it is a mirror image of it.

http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,16258/ is a guy who has worked for Bethesda since Redguard. (He did not work on Arena, Daggerfall, or Battlespire. He did work on Morrowind, Oblivion and Knights of the Nine. I'm not sure about Tribunal, Bloodmoon and Shivering Isles.) He is, along with http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,6759/, one of the devs the most respected by hardcoe TES fans.

If that was the goal, he shouldn't have called them elves. If he calls them elves, people WILL expect them to meet stereotypes.

And, guess what? He doesn't call them elves. He calls them "mer."
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Claire Jackson
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 8:48 pm

Actually, wood elfs are just like hobbits - vile, hateful, compact, and frazzle-headed little thieves. Just like Bilbo.
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CArla HOlbert
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 2:53 pm

Actually, wood elfs are just like hobbits - vile, hateful, compact, and frazzle-headed little thieves. Just like Bilbo.


I can't recall Bilbo eating his fallen enemies.
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Pete Schmitzer
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 12:50 pm

This thread is somewhat similar to arguing that Spiderman is not a proper superhero because he does not wear a cape. And that's not talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineapple_Man yet.

My problem with threads like these is that quite often, they seem to be a complaint about something under the pretext of asking "Why is it so?"

If you do want a solid reason:

The Bosmer are the way they are, because trees grow upwards.
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Jeremy Kenney
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 1:39 pm

4. True, doesn't make them all that different from several other Tolkien-inspired settings. Notably, Warcraft. What does make them different is that they changed when their god passed through the digestive tract of another god.


TES had those kind of ORcs way before Warcraft even considered it.
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Judy Lynch
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 8:11 am

Heh, Tolkien created the stereotypes. Bosmer are something different altogether. I'm not a "lore buff" on either, so I can't say anything more worth taking into consideration.
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Jarrett Willis
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 8:14 pm

Is there a reason for their high-pitched voices though?
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Sierra Ritsuka
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 1:41 pm

You should get a 3 day ban for posting crap like this here.

Who?

EDIT: The OP.
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Captian Caveman
 
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