It is obvious that the elder scrolls series have some Tolkien influences, but considering http://tolkien.cro.net/else/bbeier.html, Does Tom Bombadil have (had) CHIM if Middle-Earth was in the Elder Scrolls Universe?

I disagree that TES Lore has Tokien influence. Most of the older stuff is Tolkien copypasta, but since Redguard, almost all of the lore has been unique and interesting... until it reverted to copypasta again in Oblivion.

Anywhom, on your question, I think that Tom Bombadil probably would have Chim. Seems to be a p cool guy.

Tom Bombadil as an avatar of the reader? Cool. I've read some theories concerning Tom, and I know that he came from an anteceding story, but this is new.

The characters with Chim are manifestations of the player, the player being a shaper of the mythopoeic (a Tolkien term). If you were to translate TES into a novel, the characters with Chim likely would be writer techniques for the reader to bond with the world. So, looking at your question, from that perspective, I say yes.

So only one out of four of the TES games seems non-Tolkien influenced to you? It's funny that you say almost all then about the lore past a point.

all modern fantasy is tolkien based. He was the first guy to make Western Dragons (those with legs) smart, and he was the first to mix Norse and Roman mythology.

Up to a certain point, I agree with you. But, to me TES is really not as influenced by Tolkien as some other fantasy series are. For instance The Sword of Shannara by Terry Brooks was so obviously a Tolkien clone that Brooks should have paid him royalties. IMO, TES is much more influenced by The Forgotten Realms in AD&D than anything else. Having said that, I do realize that AD&D owes its existence to Tolkien and Middle Earth.

D&D originally even had hobbits. They are definatley a creation wholly of Tolkien.

DnD is a derivative of Tolkein, and TES is a derivative of DnD. However, it has been breaking tropes and reimagining the cliches ever since Daggerfall. Yes, it has dark elves and orcs, but besides the name and some physical similarities (note: tolkein dark elves did not have dark skin and his orc were not described at all) they are nothing like the stereotype. assuming otherwise leads to all sorts of wrong.

Most works of modern fantasy have influences from Tolkien, Bethesda probably just jumped on the bandwagon when they originally created the world, and you are wrong that the lore since Redguard entirely lacks Tolkien instances, Bethesda did try to make the Tolkien influences seem less generic by adding more lore to them (how well this worked, on the other hand, varies between different aspects of the lore.) but the only way to completely remove all Tolkien influences would be to scrap everything they already had and completely start anew, and then they'd probably copy someone else instead. The simple fact that elves, orcs, and whatnot are THERE, even if they differ dramatically from Tolkien's elves and orcs, means that the series hasn't completely been cut off from its roots. Although in this case, the Elder Scrolls is likely more based on D&D, which like most generic fantasy, copied a lot from Tolkien in the first place.

But as to Tom Bombadil, I think that judging a character from another fictional universe in terms of the Elder Scrolls universe is rather pointless, unless you're planning on making a crossover, and I think that making a crossover between the Elder Scrolls and Middle Earth would be rather pointless, given that they share a lot of the same concepts already, not to mention would likely be undesired by the fans.

I would consider it more a decendant of Tolkein than being based on it. Like this, I guess:




Toliken is the originator of modern western fantasy stories, but then, that doesn't mean that all of it is a ripoff of his stuff. Some of it is, which is really against the point of fantasy to begin with, isn't it? As Yahtzee said "That was Tolkein's Thing!" The term 'standard fantasy" should be an oxymoron, because, as TES shows, "fantasy" doesn't mean "Lord of the Rings." LotR is simply the most accessibly and immediately recognizable example of the genre.

PS: We need a new word for "genre." That word is so ugly I can't stand it.

lol - Tolkien put a lot together that was already there - but he did it in a new way. All his stuff borrows from his language studies and teaching. Thing is that the way he wrote it was foro his children - and I am sure he loved them very much so it comes from and goes to the heart

Natch loads of folks copied the stuff that he had copied ... some good and some bad copies

D&D translated it into the dice and numbers formula for a pen and paper rpg - that drew a lot system-wise from tabletop wargames that have been operating for - well folks have been doing re-enactments and such for a hundred years and more

AD&D took the rpg system a mite further and then computers got into those sort of games. They started simple - and then consoles moved in and prettied it up and then computer games fought back and prettied theirs up


It's the modern way that everything borrows from what came before. And that affects Lore in ES too. Even the system you design a game for - console/computer - has an effect.

But this seems more a general category thread than a Lore thread - fun as it is to play with such ideas

Maybe Bombadil is like a daedric prince; having complete control of his realm (the old forest) that happens to be infinate (Gandalf says that he "controls all within borders he himself made" or somthing like that.

From what I read in another thread, it seems like the story of the Orcs in TES are a little derivative from the origins of the Orcs in Middle Earth. Both are twisted elves, if I understood the origins of TES Orcs correctly that is.

Which I probably didn't.

BTW, this is my first post in the new format. I like the cool little ES banner on top now. I loooove the Dunmer from the box art from Morrowind staring at me all the time. The last character I created in Morrowind looked just like him. But what are the two in the middle from?

I think there's a thread, but Cyrus and a Daedric Seducer.

Well, they are twisted elves, but through completely different means. The patron god of Orsimer was eaten and [censored] whole by boethia. The orcs changed with him. Tolkeins orcs were somehow twisted by Morgoth.

It seems nowadays that everything fantasy related was "Tolkien's thing!", I suppose that's true, but if so then why are we arguing about TES in specific?

Oh and that review (Dragonage:Origins, no?) was hilarious. Well, all of Yahtzee's reviews are .


This is my second, I'm not so fond of the new layout tbh .

I think they are from Battlespire and Redguard, I haven't played any of them though.

No, elves being tree-communing hippies and dwarves being scoittish midgets with beards underground was tolkien';s thing for elves and dwarves if we boil it down in a super-simplified way, and most LotR ripoffs have them be that, the super-simplified pale shades of Tolkein's thing. Not all fantasy is. To use a sort-of-TES example, Greg Keyes' other book series, Kingdoms of Thorn and Bone doesn't have elves or dwarves at all, a fully mythopoeic world that is unique. TES does the same thing. If at first glance it looks like a ripoff, look again. The tree-hugging subrace of elves are cannibals and the dwarves, well, whole books could be written on that.

It's been said, but of course there are similarities. Tamriel started as a D&D setting, on paper.

That said, most of the similarities were early, and later games have branched off to the point that you can't point at TES and say "LotR clone!".

not ALL elves, just look at the one's Morgoth got.

Note that Dark Elves are called moriquendi in middle-earth, and moriche in tamriel.
I think there are some more names and much elven words (like s?la, mor) referring to tolkien, not mentioning the easter eggs in e.g. Oblivion (thoronirs ring, the one that agarmir stole the ring from, his name is an anagram of frodo baggins, and the clothing data folder called 'mcshirthobbit')
I think influences are proven, but I wouldn't say TES is a tolkien clone, tolkien's lore for example has more christian influences while TES is merely based on greek/buddhist/modern philosophy.

Everything has a certain infleunce from Tolkien and what other mythology.
We Nords have had Elves for ages in our Mythology, for example.

Well, yeah, I'm not saying there aren't any, I'm saying that to some extent they can justifiably be expected, but enough has been either changed or fleshed out so as to be unique.


Dwarves, too, if I recall correctly.

True we have dwarves as well and other known creatures as well.
We got the World Snake, The Nidh?gg AKA Nidhogg which is said to fly over the horizon with corpses as his scales. And a lot of other very strange things. Like this that I found as most interesting: Nagelfar a ship made of dead mens nails...