Too Much Freedom

Post » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:07 am

I just think a level cap of 100 with 100 perks is more reasonable than 70 without altering the dynamic they are obviously trying to create by introducing these caps, I never said I wanted all 280 perks. I think 70 is really unreasonable for players that spend many hours playing their game and would rather continue improving their character than starting a whole new game.


Your anolysis of level 70 vs. level 100 is meaningless until we actually play the game.

It's too early to make your statement because there is no way to know yet whether it feels appropriate or not.

We might find the game is just perfect, playing for 500+ hours and never even get beyond level 30 or 40. Or we might play the game and reach level 80 in 20 hours and decide the leveling system is completely broken (obviously that's extremely unlikely),
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Sophh
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:01 am

After reading all that i don't even remember the OP, I just have a need to comment about fast travel for some reason.

Yeah there has to be fast travel, not everybody has the time to walk everywhere. I think that FT should be limited to just cities, towns, inns, and then you have to walk from there. I don't think that would be tobad. And I like having a compass, why should I have to go to my map to find out which way is southeast. Quest markers, I would be ok with them being gone as long as i get good indication as to where i'm supposed togo, clairvoyance could easily take its place.

Not really sure if this has anything to do with OP.
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R.I.p MOmmy
 
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Post » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:27 am

I think the OP has some solid points. I actually brought up my distaste in Oblivion's brand of fast-travelling (as well leveling creatures) in another thread for a completely different reason -- that being that these things caused Oblivion to be poorly paced. To be honest, my personal "delimma" was not that I couldn't tote the shiny sword back into town and add it to my collection, it was that I couldn't tote all this useless clutter and sell it as junk, and I was too afraid to drop it because the areas reset.

One of the very first things that I did after finding Oblivion had fast travel was that I had it completely modded out. Yes, it made my game slightly more irritating at times, but in the long run, I was able to enjoy it more. I realize that this is not what everyone wants, but I think the "instant poof" travel method really ruined the game's feel. Morrowind DID have fast travel (Mark & Recall, silt-striders, and boats) but I think it's important to remember that half-way through the MQ, you started needing to go on foot more and more. The fact that animals and baddies DID NOT LEVEL with you meant that areas had to be explored for a legitimate reason (not just out of wonderment, but here was plenty of that, too), and you had to go slow. You found a lot more treasures/cool things; I was compelled to remember things of interest and come back to them again and again. It was a more intuitive way of controlling areas than just throwing up a giant invisible wall.

If you take Assassin's Creed, you'll notice that the first game in that series used a fast-travel system that made the "middle" between cities COMPLETELY POINTLESS. It was very convenient, but after that first initial ride between towns, you could go the rest of the entire game without once seeing the outside of a town. The developers seemed to take notice of their mistake, and in the second and third games improved their "fast travel" methods. Yes, you could still technically do it, but the cost was not as negligible as in Oblivion OR Morrowind (free or very very low cost) and the world was designed in such a way that you really didn't want to fast-travel all the time.
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Shelby McDonald
 
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Post » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:15 am

they try to make elder scrolls a game for everyone. fast travel is there so people who want to use it can. if you dont want to use it simply dont use it, its as if it was never there. whats the problem? and its not a matter of too much freedom..
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dell
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:35 pm

I just think a level cap of 100 with 100 perks is more reasonable than 70 without altering the dynamic they are obviously trying to create by introducing these caps, I never said I wanted all 280 perks. I think 70 is really unreasonable for players that spend many hours playing their game and would rather continue improving their character than starting a whole new game.

I disagree. Bethesda is really pushing the uniqueness of characters in this game. 50 out of 280 is a good balance. 100 is over a third of the perks, how can your character be that different from others that way. isn't it clear that you're characters arn't goin' to master everything like in Oblivion.
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Julie Ann
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:31 pm

Your anolysis of level 70 vs. level 100 is meaningless until we actually play the game.

It's too early to make your statement because there is no way to know yet whether it feels appropriate or not.

We might find the game is just perfect, playing for 500+ hours and never even get beyond level 30 or 40. Or we might play the game and reach level 80 in 20 hours and decide the leveling system is completely broken (obviously that's extremely unlikely),

Well, I can already see where this game is going, in the direction of Mass Effect 2's so-called "streamlining". Streamlining is the new developer code word for "I'm dumbing your [censored] down".
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Benji
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:16 pm

Someone liked Morrowind.
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mollypop
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:54 pm

Here's an article I wrote for my videogame blog called snip. It talks about all the ways modern videogames are disappointing me. It's long, but I'm sure you're smart enough to realise reading is nothing but good for you.

EDIT: I should stress that I am playing The Elder Scrolls on Xbox, not PC. That means that yes I'm playing a "lesser" version of the game, but it's also more definitive in its aims and successes. So bear in mind that modding is not an option for me and more importantly, is not really a fix for this problem without changing the game into something it was not originally intended to be.



TOO MUCH FREEDOM


When The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind was released by Bethesda in 2002, everyone fell in love with its detail and freedom. Here was a game that let you do what you want, when you want, who you want. Don't want to complete the main quest? Sure thing. Don't want to kill anyone in the game whatsoever? Possible, but you're an idiot. Want to just cut and run into the wilderness, never to return? You could, and more than that, it probably won't even be by choice. Morrowind was a dangerous continent filled with monsters, a character of your complete design, and this overwhelming sense of absolute freedom. But how much freedom is too much? Well, one only needs to look at its sequel, Oblivion, to find out.

The best thing about Morrowind is that it felt like a living breathing world. It was massive in scope (approximately 40 square kilometres), possessed fantastical flora and fauna and was incredibly dangerous for all but the most battle hardened warriors. But most important was its sense of risk and reward.

If you strayed from the beaten path, you eventually had to stumble back onto it to get home. The only way to get anywhere in a hurry was to take silt striders, which only traveled to the surrounding towns, not all across the continent. This resulted in the need to memorise which towns gave you fast access to the places you needed to go, several silt strider transfers mid journey, and the eventual need to leg the last part of the trip to get to where you needed to be.

The continent reminded me very much of my own; Australia. There's cities all around the edge of the landmass, and only danger in the centre. You could, and often did come across enemies that were simply far too powerful for you to defeat at your current level. And the catch was if you did, through bravado or necessity to complete quests, stray too far from towns, there was absolutely no way out of the situation other than limping home, riddled with disease and broken weaponry. But sometimes carrying treasure and powerful items too. Because enemies and items didn't scale in difficulty or power in Morrowind, the chance of stumbling across a sword more powerful than you deserved at your level or mountains of gold was enticing enough that you did want to explore the world, and experience all the risks that came with it. It felt like virtual treasure hunting.

But Morrowind wasn't without its flaws, and when The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion was released in 2006 it fixed many of the things that were met with less than glowing praise from the critics and fans. But it also killed everything that made the first game special. And this was all completed through the inclusion of "Fast Travel". Fast travel, in a nutshell, was the ability to open your map, pick a spot and teleport there instantly (although in game time did pass, but this really had little effect on the game's events). There were a few rules, you couldn't fast travel whilst indoors, when enemies were around, or in the air. This kept the system from being exploited, but it didn't keep it from killing your desire for adventure.

Fast Travel means that instead of walking through the visually impressive vistas crafted by Bethesda in the world of Oblivion, we simply teleport. Instead of riding a horse through the wilderness, or strolling along a mountain path or seeing what might be over that next hill, you instantaneously reposition yourself as close as possible to your next goal. This also removes all the excitement of wandering off that beaten path, and searching for that ever illusive weapon that will give you an edge over the world.

And part of this decision is made easier by the fact that the whole world appropriates itself to give you the "best" experience. Wherever you go in Oblivion, the enemies will be an acceptable challenge. This is because both they, and the items they use and drop, scale in power to match your level. One could argue this keeps the game frustration free, but to me this creates a climactic plateau in the game's design. If you never feel out of your depth, your victories are hollow. If there's never a chance to find something wildly rewarding in the game world, you simply stop looking.

Bethesda are removing the joy and wonder of exploration in their games and breaking your sense of immersion at the same time. Oblivion is roughly the same size as Morrowind, but it feels so much smaller. And it's not simply a matter of just not using fast travel, we as humans are programmed to take the path of least resistance, it's a survival mechanism. If fast travel is there, you will eventually use it, and once you start, you won't stop.

In Morrowind, if you got into a tough spot, with no potions, over-incumbered with loot and a shiny sword sitting in front of you in the middle of the continent, you had a personal crisis over what to do. It was a serious situation because you'd have to trek all the way back to a town where you could sell what you had found and hopefully free up enough space in your inventory to collect the sword. Then you'd have to actually make your way back to the weapon (usually by foot) and collect it. It made you think about how much things were worth to you in the game, or plan ahead to make sure you never had to backtrack until you were "done" (you were never done) with your adventure. In Oblivion, you simply leave the cave and fast travel back to a vendor to offload your earnings, fast travel back to that exact spot, pick up the sword and continue on. What was once a forty minute ordeal became a five minute inconvenience. Decisions rarely came with weight and consequence.

In Morrowind, you didn't have a convenient compass that lead you in a straight line directly to quest locations and destinations. You had a rudimentary map, and you had the people around you. The quest would give you a fairly accurate guide on how to complete it, but sometimes you'd have to investigate further to find exactly what you were looking for. NPCs in the game world were useful to you, perhaps they would know where that cave is? Or how to get rid of Vampirism? Or maybe the answer's in a book, one of six novels worth of literature in the game world. Everything had purpose, everything was fully fleshed out.

Do you know how many books I read in Oblivion? One, and only because I was forced to in order to complete a quest. The whole game is spent looking at a quest compass and map, instead of taking in the world around you. You don't need to experience the game anymore.

There's a http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-crucial-lessons-learned-by-watching-kids-play-video-games/, and It's clear these are changes being made to accommodate a more current audience that might not want to deal with these issues that made Morrowind so unique. But it feels like the soul of the franchise has been deadened by its modern touches. There are plenty of games out there that keep things simple for you, that take you down the single path of narrative and scripted explosions, and these games have their place, but why can't Elder Scrolls have its own?

Bethesda clearly realised that scaling enemies was not a good move and have toned it down for the upcoming sequel, Skyrim, but i've seen nothing to indicate that Fast Travel won't be there to murder my sense of wonder and fear like it did in Oblivion.

What's the point of creating an entire world if you don't want people to see it?


I empathize with your frustration concerning modding capacity being limited to PC. It is a too often overlooked fact.

I also agree with you on the scalling issue. Most people do, I think.

As to fast travel. . . You did have to find the places before you could fast travel to them, which required some exploration. And I still didn't use Fastravel all the time myself. Sometimes I just FELT like exploring.

I made a personal point of reading as many of the ingame books as I came across, and then made a further personal quest of searching out and acquiring all of the rare tomes. Because I love the lore. Along the way I discovered that some of them increased my skills. Lovely added bonus.

I don't think anyone should FORCED to read tons of the ingame books. I don't think anyone should be foreced to walk everywhere, after a certain point, just because I like to do it. In the end, it really does come down to a certain amount of freedom, and accepting, as hard is it can be (and I do not say that mockingly, I know it can really be an irritating notion) to accept, that there are plenty of people who simply do not want to play the game in a manner anything similar to the way that you do, or that I do etc. etc.

Whether it is fast travel, or race options, or "overpowered" items/spells, or the abilities of the acrobat, or reading the books, or completing the main quest, the moment you make an action mandatory, or remove a players options by cutting back certain features, you are essentially forcing a certain gameplay style on other who may not like or want it.

And, in these instances, I cannot sign on entirely for the "path of least resistance," because other things, aside from pure survival, come into play here, chief amongst them being varied prefferences, but also the fact that you can survive with pretty much any build, which allows you the liesure of not having to powerplay for the strongest possible Character Type just to triumph in the game. Theorhetically, by the "always seek the best, brightest and easiest to manage" school of thought, every player should be maxed out in every skill, but I guaruntee that in Oblivion, most people were not. Most people maxed out their areas of interest and left certain other skill sets largely untouched.

Even with fast travel, people who want to walk will walk. Even with massively powerful magic, people who want to be Conan rather than Elric, Dumbledore or Gandalf will do so. Even with armour hard enough to turn a Morgul blade, people who DO want to play as pure magicians will wear their robes, and shaman and beserkers will wear their pelts and nakedness, or at least as much nakedness as the game allows, given its sometimes prudish sentiments.

To those who wish to play differently, let them. I don't want anyone taking away any of my favourite features, so I am slow to advocate taking away anyone elses'.
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Donatus Uwasomba
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:02 am

Well, I can already see where this game is going, in the direction of Mass Effect 2's so-called "streamlining". Streamlining is the new developer code word for "I'm dumbing your [censored] down".


Legit concern. :(

To be fair, ME2 made up for its "streamlining" in several other ways. They were being experimental and succeeded in some places and epically failed in others (ahem, resource gathering).


In my opinion, simplicity is generally a good thing -- but sometimes, it's not always appropriate. Simplicity in a FPS is essential for maximizing the "fun factor"... Simplicity in a "deep, breath-taking" RPG? Mmmm.. not so much. At that point, it's just about getting as many sales as possible.
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Lizzie
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:14 pm

I empathize with your frustration concerning modding capacity being limited to PC. It is a too often overlooked fact.

I also agree with you on the scalling issue. Most people do, I think.

As to fast travel. . . You did have to find the places before you could fast travel to them, which required some exploration. And I still didn't use Fastravel all the time myself. Sometimes I just FELT like exploring.

I made a personal point of reading as many of the ingame books as I came across, and then made a further personal quest of searching out and acquiring all of the rare tomes. Because I love the lore. Along the way I discovered that some of them increased my skills. Lovely added bonus.

I don't think anyone should FORCED to read tons of the ingame books. I don't think anyone should be foreced to walk everywhere, after a certain point, just because I like to do it. In the end, it really does come down to a certain amount of freedom, and accepting, as hard is it can be (and I do not say that mockingly, I know it can really be an irritating notion) to accept, that there are plenty of people who simply do not want to play the game in a manner anything similar to the way that you do, or that I do etc. etc.

Whether it is fast travel, or race options, or "overpowered" items/spells, or the abilities of the acrobat, or reading the books, or completing the main quest, the moment you make an action mandatory, or remove a players options by cutting back certain features, you are essentially forcing a certain gameplay style on other who may not like or want it.

And, in these instances, I cannot sign on entirely for the "path of least resistance," because other things, aside from pure survival, come into play here, chief amongst them being varied prefferences, but also the fact that you can survive with pretty much any build, which allows you the liesure of not having to powerplay for the strongest possible Character Type just to triumph in the game. Theorhetically, by the "always seek the best, brightest and easiest to manage" school of thought, every player should be maxed out in every skill, but I guaruntee that in Oblivion, most people were not. Most people maxed out their areas of interest and left certain other skill sets largely untouched.

Even with fast travel, people who want to walk will walk. Even with massively powerful magic, people who want to be Conan rather than Elric, Dumbledore or Gandalf will do so. Even with armour hard enough to turn a Morgul blade, people who DO want to play as pure magicians will wear their robes, and shaman and beserkers will wear their pelts and nakedness, or at least as much nakedness as the game allows, given its sometimes prudish sentiments.

To those who wish to play differently, let them. I don't want anyone taking away any of my favourite features, so I am slow to advocate taking away anyone elses'.


While I stand by what I said, I also agree with your argument wholeheartedly. I just wish we could have the best of both worlds, and it CAN be done, I just feel like we're going to end up with one or the other unfortunately.
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Wane Peters
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:38 pm

Main problem is that despite being optional, if they design the game with fast travel in mind, it will svck if you don't use it. Fetch and return quests across the continent are not fun and it makes no sense for NPCs to even give such quests so lightly. The beginning of Oblivion starts you off sending you to Chorrol, then to Kvatch, then to Bruma right away. With fast travel that's nothing, without it, it's an extreme amount of walking. Regardless of which you choose, you're still given what should have been an unreasonable task for a level one character - saving a town from daedra and closing a gate to Oblivion. But since it was level scaled, the creatures a dozen guards couldn't handle, you slice through like butter.
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Miguel
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:16 am

From the moment I read the title and subtitle of this thread, I knew I could expect nothing short of an essay. I enjoyed the read, it was well-written (a welcome change in most online video game forums), and I share the majority of (if not all of) your views and sentiments. It's all true, and it's why, at the end of the day, as far as I'm concerned, Oblivion cannot touch Morrowind. In fact, I may just have to boot up Morrowind here shortly ;)
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CArla HOlbert
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:55 pm

Main problem is that despite being optional, if they design the game with fast travel in mind, it will svck if you don't use it. Fetch and return quests across the continent are not fun and it makes no sense for NPCs to even give such quests so lightly. The beginning of Oblivion starts you off sending you to Chorrol, then to Kvatch, then to Bruma right away. With fast travel that's nothing, without it, it's an extreme amount of walking. Regardless of which you choose, you're still given what should have been an unreasonable task for a level one character - saving a town from daedra and closing a gate to Oblivion. But since it was level scaled, the creatures a dozen guards couldn't handle, you slice through like butter.

That is exactly how I feel, and because of that I have offered a solution http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1207074-how-to-have-a-cake-and-eat-it-too that can potentially satisfy both parties.
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Alan Cutler
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:02 pm

OP
i like you, but imo your 50% right and 50% wrong

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Valerie Marie
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:37 am

I mean I'd see if all locations are available from the start, we could fast travel in caves,dungeons, AROUND threats, and in buildings.

You know people got lives too, we just can't WALK and RUN all the TIME, because we got other priorities yet we still(wether you believe or not) ENJOY the game using fast travel, there's no truth to anything thing else as being a fact but more so OPINIONS

Also the nerve of some of the people on this forum trying to be childish(even when they have a legit post style wise) and selfish, because I stated the above one time and someone tried to tell me the game TES isn't for me like they are God Himself, I don't know if he wanted me to get kicked out of this forum or not but, being selfish isn't cool mainly when you simply don't use it, a matter of fact if you like being so immersive and using your imagination as well as pretending, pretend fast travel isn't there.

Peace...

Also take note I'm not yelling just highlighting words, so they won't be missed.

Also Mark/recall were lame. At least when I tried it out and compared it to fast travel.


TL;DR: Read you might learn something.
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Ernesto Salinas
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:42 pm

I will tame a caber-tooth cat and cat-fast-travel to my hearts content :nod:.

Come on guys, this is funny! Replyreplyreplyreplyreply :lol:

No, no it's not and you just virtually made the same exact post on the last page and what the hell is a "caber-tooth cat"
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Queen
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:26 pm

Stopped reading when you said Too much freedom. No such thing in an rpg, and specially not in Tes.
Try again.
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sara OMAR
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:52 am

While I stand by what I said, I also agree with your argument wholeheartedly. I just wish we could have the best of both worlds, and it CAN be done, I just feel like we're going to end up with one or the other unfortunately.

I guess they CAN, but thats not where Bethesda wanted to take the game. Is it such a bother to just take Skyrim for what it is and not what you want it to be


*coughMorrowind2Cough*

lol half kidding on that last bit.

@ JerZeyCJ, Welcome to the internet. That is what we call a troll, can't you see the "please don't feed trolls" sign.
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Aliish Sheldonn
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:16 pm

there's no truth to anything thing else as being a fact but more so OPINIONS


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c
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teeny
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:57 pm

Idea:

A revitalized "hard-core" mode that can be set at the beginning of the game and cannot be turned off.


The purpose:

"hardcoe" would serve up to the RPGers who long for the days of Morrowind a reasonable compromise, with things like NO fast travel, fogged map, and other features that we love to demand.

Regular mode would feature the game as it was meant to be played by beginners to the series or casual gamers.


Although, to note, "hardcoe" shouldn't mean, "We made enemies 500% tougher and now you take 50% more damage. LULZ" It just means different mechanics and a different feel.
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Project
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:44 pm

It would be cool to have an option to turn fast travel off, so that way you don't feel tempted to use it. Also I think quest markers should only come up when you get the quest giver (and other npcs) to like you enough to point out the location on the map. Then the marker would make sense.
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Rachie Stout
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:53 pm

It would be cool to have an option to turn fast travel off, so that way you don't feel tempted to use it. Also I think quest markers should only come up when you get the quest giver (and other npcs) to like you enough to point out the location on the map. Then the marker would make sense.


I'd rather the compass be removed than fast travel. It's easy enough to just not use fast travel, but if I don't like the compass, what do I do? Stick a piece of duct tape on my TV screen?
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Gwen
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:39 am

Idea:

A revitalized "hard-core" mode that can be set at the beginning of the game and cannot be turned off.


The purpose:

"hardcoe" would serve up to the RPGers who long for the days of Morrowind a reasonable compromise, with things like NO fast travel, fogged map, and other features that we love to demand.

Regular mode would feature the game as it was meant to be played by beginners to the series or casual gamers.


Although, to note, "hardcoe" shouldn't mean, "We made enemies 500% tougher and now you take 50% more damage. LULZ" It just means different mechanics and a different feel.

Why do you assume that people who want to "play the as it was meant to be played" are casual players/beginners?
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tiffany Royal
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:38 pm

there is no such thing as to much freedom enough said
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R.I.p MOmmy
 
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Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:56 pm

Stopped reading when you said Too much freedom. No such thing in an rpg, and specially not in Tes.
Try again.


I hate when people say that. "I stopped reading". You're basically celebrating your childish ignorance. You have no idea what you're talking about when you don't read what you are discussing, you're wasting your life away not reading things that may not be in line with what you believe, you're not right. None of us are. It takes a true idiot to boast the pseudo-omniscience required to claim that intelligent discussion is not worth their time. Nothing is perfect, and too much of anything is always a bad thing.

Try again to act like a mature, contributing member of society, even if only to keep up appearances.
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Alberto Aguilera
 
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