Top-side Exploration : V

» Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:59 pm

I've been playing a lot of Fallout and Oblivion lately to deal with my Skyrim excitement. And I've been thinking about why I enjoy exploring Fallout's landscape so much more than exploring Oblivion's countryside.

While Oblivion has some beautiful forests, that's pretty much ALL it has to offer a wandering traveler. You'll find lots of doors to caves, some ruined forts, and some small settlements (those were my favorite). Wineries and estates were great, because they gave a sense of life to the world. But other than that, everything cool is underground. The dungeons always had unique personality and interesting hooks, but they were all still just dungeons. I know some people were probably really excited about that, and loved some old-school dungeon-diving, but after a while a cave is still just another cave.

Fallout's locations, on the other hand, all seemed to knit together into more of a world. I always enjoyed finding a new KIND of place, or a settlement or camp founded around some unique situation or location. I would love to see more of that sort of approach in Skyrim's world, where interesting things are happening on the surface as well as inside the dungeons.

I understand some of this is a function of how the basic world construction works, interior cells and all, and it's probably easiest to divide up the work that way, but just try to make it less obvious.

A list of some of the first sorts of locations to come to mind: (most of which are probably obvious or lame, but anyone is certainly free to suggest better ones. Basic idea is just Things that are visible from the surface and become landmarks, though there can still always be the possibility to "enter" them for deeper interaction)

Lumber mill
Strip-mining camp
Water-mill
Brewery
Monasteries
Settlements with a unique hook or location, not just generic buildings on a road
Forest fire scorched area
A corrupted well consuming a village
A mass grave
Fortifications
A haunted hall
Sunken/wrecked fleet

» Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:19 pm

more unmarked locations

» Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:28 pm

Points of interest I call them, whether they be natural like waterfalls, cliffs, neat rock formations or man made like statues, shipwrecks,etc. Gothic 3 had the best natural points of interest in any open world rpg I have played, they had 100 foot tall water, huge cliffs,etc.

Ob use a lot of procedural generation, Skyrims world is hand crafted so I expect to see a lot of cool natural wonders, even in one the pics, the one of the old city there are 2 tall waterfalls, much better than OB sad canned waterfall animation(really what were they thinking).

» Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:23 pm

more unmarked locations

While I would love exploring and discovering those unmarked locations, I would then also require dozens of person map markers to mark them so I could find them again later.

Now, I could support unADVERTISED locations that never appeared on any sort of compass but were added to your map only when you actually discovered them. That would be pretty cool - see if you could discover every waterfall in Skyrim, or find "Ancient Tree" that serves no real purpose other than a random local landmark.

That sort of exploration/discovery is the major reason I play these games. (My problem is just that I play sporadically, so I'd love to be able to look at the map later and say "Oh yeah, Ancient Tree! That was neat, I should go back and take a screenshot!")

» Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:23 pm

While I would love exploring and discovering those unmarked locations, I would then also require dozens of person map markers to mark them so I could find them again later.

Now, I could support unADVERTISED locations that never appeared on any sort of compass but were added to your map only when you actually discovered them. That would be pretty cool - see if you could discover every waterfall in Skyrim, or find "Ancient Tree" that serves no real purpose other than a random local landmark.

That sort of exploration/discovery is the major reason I play these games. (My problem is just that I play sporadically, so I'd love to be able to look at the map later and say "Oh yeah, Ancient Tree! That was neat, I should go back and take a screenshot!")

That would be cool. I also love coming across natural points of interest like you mention. Skyrim handcrafted world should provide a few, some of the pics in the wilds already show a much better world design than Ob.

» Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:31 pm

While I would love exploring and discovering those unmarked locations, I would then also require dozens of person map markers to mark them so I could find them again later.

Now, I could support unADVERTISED locations that never appeared on any sort of compass but were added to your map only when you actually discovered them. That would be pretty cool - see if you could discover every waterfall in Skyrim, or find "Ancient Tree" that serves no real purpose other than a random local landmark.

That sort of exploration/discovery is the major reason I play these games. (My problem is just that I play sporadically, so I'd love to be able to look at the map later and say "Oh yeah, Ancient Tree! That was neat, I should go back and take a screenshot!")

Or we could have the ability to mark locations on our map, maybe even write notes. Of course I can live with a printed out map and a notebook on my desk, the old fashioned way.

» Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:02 am

Hm depends. I can see the point of keeping the World more barren because of performance issues, otherwise we probably wouldnt even have Interior cells. Im all for more unique landscaping though.

» Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:24 pm

Hm depends. I can see the point of keeping the World more barren because of performance issues, otherwise we probably wouldnt even have Interior cells. Im all for more unique landscaping though.

Keep the small clutter items interior, that's understandable. I just want some bigger cues and variety than "another door to a cave or dungeon." I'm encouraged that the more recent Fallout games have managed more exterior variety (though I'm also aware that they don't have leaves on trees

» Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:33 am

Personally, I'd like to have the Fallout (and Morrowind) method of a completley blank map rather than knowing where everything was like in Oblivion. It kind of ruined the sense of exploration apart from the caves.

» Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:00 pm

While hiking, one of the coolest things I've ever experienced was coming across a massive landslide area. We were hiking in a pretty dense rain forest in New Zealand. We were going across a mountain's face when all of a sudden we wandered into a clearing. It was probably 75-100 meters wide and 300-400 meters long. All of the trees were toppled and jumbled. There was no forest floor anymore. Bare soil and rocks were exposed everywhere. It was surreal. We made our way as quickly as we could across the rubble field. It had been raining and there was no telling if anything uphill would give way.

» Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:31 am

If you played OB with the UL mods, you would have had a much better experience.

» Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:43 pm

Personally, I too enjoyed the exploration of Fallout 3 over Oblivion, and actually Morrowind for that matter. I think Morrowing did a better job with creating an alien landscape at times and brought more diversity, but Fallout just told an amazing story with random locations and tiny little details that maybe you didn't even see the first few times, only on the third or fourth pass-through did you notice something. For me, that was amazing. It's like I got this dual moment: I simultaneously got this deepening of the game universe, while also feeling like I got to peer into the creativity of the designer. Just very cool.

Not a lot of takeaways from that little aside, just that if the devs can knit a fun, interesting landscape and setting, I'll be happy to buy the CE and spend another 1,000 hours with our dear friends from Bethesda.

» Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:30 am

More quests in small settlements and more random quests in the wilderness.

In Oblivion there was guranteed one quest per village. In Morrowind, there were hundreds of stranded characters on the road and Seyda Neen had about 5 little quests just to get started.

» Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:22 am

Lumber mill
Strip-mining camp
Water-mill
Brewery
Monasteries
Settlements with a unique hook or location, not just generic buildings on a road
Forest fire scorched area
A corrupted well consuming a village
A mass grave
Fortifications
A haunted hall
Sunken/wrecked fleet

Groves
Glacier Labyrinths
Mountain Terraces (and towns built on them)
Canyons

» Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:26 am

I agree with your thread immensely. I enjoyed your examples and found it useful.

I would like to offer an alternative viewpoint, as to why maybe they don't always offer so many variations in the visuals.

To start, let's imagine there is some fancy new level designer working at Bethesda and he invents (from your list) a Monastary that really has total immersion and takes you away to another land and makes you feel like you're there. It's so cool that everyone on the team enjoys seeing that place. Now what should they do with it? Everyone wants to have a crack at throwing an interesting Quest centered around going there. So pretty soon the one designer's cool idea spreads out and affects more and more of the team, pulling them away from their own personal achievement goals for the company by causing them to be too excited working on the one guy's cool place. As long as things are simple, it doesn't breed that excitement that would infect other members of the team and lead them away from their own work requirements. But an idea, especially a cool one, spreads out ... pulling in others. The simple Monastary that became the vision of coolness now has someone from the dungeons department crafting a dungeon for it. Then that takes some additional "special programming" from a member of the coding team because of some idea the dungeon designer had for it. Then that takes special audio from the audio team, and then a new song or two, and then the character development team has to donate 2 workers toward building some new monster models, which then need more programming to accomplish their unique behavior or spell effects. That takes more special effects audio, and then dozens of play testers have to run through it a hundred times to make sure all the bugs are worked out. Then there are custom scripts, and graphics, each pulling in another member of art department, and ALL of this ... all of this comes from one simple Monastary that somehow has bloomed up into this center of life, and now there are parts of the world that have to now suddenly be diminished or deleted to make room and time to complete the game as scheduled. As one thing grows, the others must diminish.

If they had all the time and money they needed, I'd say then every cool place a guy could design could also feature the related Quests, characters, and adjacent dungeons and forts and nearby local monsters that are needed to flesh the place out to make it all that it can be. I wish more developers could invest like this. But if you figure that every RPG games has thousands of locations in total, and each location has to have some Quest centered around, possibly more than one, and that all of that has to be worked on by dozens of different people to accomplish, it begins to be seen just how difficult it is for there to be a milliion unique and interesting and varied locations in a game like this.

I wish they could do it. But there is a reason they can't. And I assure you, that reason is NOT because they are stingy with their love and desire to do more, they simply cannot do more than they already are. They may be like some kind of gods of gaming, sure, but they are still men and women too. With lives and families. Godspeed, Bethesda, full steam ahead.

» Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:14 pm

I agree 100% with the OP! In addition:
The world shouldn't show Ruins and Dungeons and cities near us on our compass unless we know it is there, in Oblivion you always knew miles away that there was a dungeon coming up, somehow imo making the world seem much smaller.

The cities should be built around specific areas just as OP said, like in Fo3 rivet city and megaton for example. A city built around a mountain side would have huge differences in the height of where buildings are. The great hall would obviously be part of the mountain itself, with a corridor leading straight down into the mountain to make it feel huge and ancient.

A city built very close to an extremely steep cliff and the sea side could have part of the houses built on water, attached to the steep cliff side in a somewhat realistic way to make it feel like the city wasn't placed there first, but the environment.

» Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:31 pm

Keep the small clutter items interior, that's understandable. I just want some bigger cues and variety than "another door to a cave or dungeon." I'm encouraged that the more recent Fallout games have managed more exterior variety (though I'm also aware that they don't have leaves on trees

One thing I miss in Oblivion is a sort of defended outpost, A bandit camp with a palisade, perhaps a small fort over the underground entrance, like the ruined forts in Oblivion but operational.
Fallout 3 was nice here with the raider outdoor bases, to simplify it you might want to put the living quarter inside a load door and just leave the defence outside.

» Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:26 pm

Couldn't agree with the OP more. Although Skystorm77 makes a good point as well.

Here are a bunch more ideas taken from the overflowing "quest_notes.txt" document on my desktop (just for fun; I'm sure Bethesda already know what they're going to add, and I'm sure I'm under their radar anyway).

- Petrified village and/or forest
- Standing stones w/ optional bound/trapped ghost or daedra at their center
- Forgotten, overgrown graveyard w/ creepy gravekeeper NPC
- Ancient hidden palace w/ suspiciously life-like statues everywhere (gorgon boss!)
- Ruined church/temple (broken stained glass windows, please)
- Lonely hilltop cairn, covered in skulls and ancient wargear (defended by malevolent ghostly heroes)
- Floating wooden "fortress islands" on lakes (populated by small faction communities/traders or outlaws)
- Abandoned museum with sinister armoured statues lining the walls (who come to life and attack if anyone moves the exhibits)
- Fortified inn/tavern in the wilderness, converted from an abandoned fort/keep

» Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:30 am

Here are few of my ideas:

- Treetop fortresses built around trees for support, with branching multi-leveled hanging rope bridges with wooden planks, all built at varying heights above the wild forest floor below and to different sizes and configurations, with a town hall, a church, and all the amenities ... just in the wild.

- A hidden city built in the cliff wall directly beneath a waterfall of massive-volume which is very wide also (think half of Niagra). And the city's top and front face are made entirely of stained-glass windows that are always streaming down with water from the falls, creating an eternal movement effect when you look up. Most of the shops face out to the falling water and coloured glass, creating a wonderland of coloured light and shadows within it upon all finished surfaces that are made of polished marble stone and silver-based metallics.

- A city built on a very very large round tower that blots out the sky. All the buildings are built hanging-garden style along the outside perimeter, with some of the building external and some internal with the door opening to a hooden staircase built into the wall. The entire city can be navigated by climbing the stairs, accessing the attached structures which hang above the ground, and also by interconnected hallways and tunnels INSIDE the tower that skirt around the central core which is undisturbed from top to bottom by a large empty core which only the mages can access to fly from one part of the city (below) to the others (above) through magical means. Under the city, gained by going down through the central Mage Access core, is a huge cavern underworld of water and stalactites hanging down. It is a real lake under there. Beneath the water is the ruins of an ancient civilization whose doors are sealed by magical bubbles. If you go through them, you arrive in a dry underworld environment, an evil haunt, full of wretched monsters specific to this one dungeon only. And ghosts....

- An ancient temple overgrown with trees and weeds such that from the outside of the jungle it cannot even be seen. Once on the stones, you can barely see that these are ruins, and if you explore under behind some trees, you may find one old door leading into the city. But it may take a while to find that door, having to navigate the deeply-overgrown ruins for quite a long time before you can get to that door. The outdoor place is filled with giant snakes that are half-man (top half) and half snake, with a snake-face, who spit poison like acidic arrows of death and hiss at you all the time, who crawl in the stones under the ground and can surprise you by popping out of holes to attack you.

- The ruins of an old outdoor animal museum gone rogue, now fallen into disrepair, with tons of dangerous monsters now inhabiting the ruins which are now their favorite location. But there is a rumor of buried treasure there, hiding amidst the rubble, and you must dig...

- A mountain city built (staggered-ly) across numerous independant crags of stone jutting up thousands of feet into the air. The crags (and thus the different portions of the dangerously high city) are accessible via special stone bridges that connect the crags to each other and then back to the main portion of the mountain that leads back down to Skyrim via a series of criss-crossing trails. From here, one can look out and see nothing but mountain peaks rising all around them, but one cannot see the ground, which is lost in clouds and fog 1000's of feet below. If someone falls from the cliff, it can take minutes before they die, and they should scream the whole way down as the screen begins to fade to black (simulating that you pass out just before death). Dragons are often seen flying around this city due to its elevation, but they have special horns that are so loud it hurts Dragons' ears, and shake the mountains, causing them to tire of trying to bother that place. However, they can often be seen flying around the city, off in the distance.

- Shimmering desert orbs provide elemental magic resistance to sand only, allowing humans to enter an "Oasis" undisturbed. Inside are stone courtyards with several shops and a bazaar for buying many things, while there is always at least one Mansion owned by a rich desert Lord or Prince ... There is a place to recharge your water supplies for your travels through the desert. Every day they are replenished by special Desert Couriers riding Elephants stocked with supplies. You an often follow such elephant teams in order to help you FIND your way IN to the Oasis, as long as you don't follow too closely and get attacked by the Guards protecting them.

These are all I have for now ....

» Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:51 am

I agree w/t OP but want to add that logical use of these locations would also be nice. I hated that in Oblivion the capital of the Empire had all these great ancient fortifications around them and they were just full of monsters and bandits. WHY? Instead of these big and mighty Kings, having a town of 50 people and miles and miles of wilderness surrounding them...staff these stronghold with you vast armies.

As much as I like there to be many dark caves and bandit hideouts; the nobels generally rule these nations and we must assume that this is atleast partially due to their might of arms. So, I'd like to see not only a couple wandering knights on horse back, but an army training ground near the capitals and a scripted attack on a bandit camp by some Dukes forces to show that I'm not the only force of order in the realm.

Use some of these locations for special purposes like for a council between different faction leaders.

» Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:58 am

the only problem with this is that (with a world the size of skyrim/oblivion) if you add too many above ground buildings to be stumbled upon while exploring, you will just end up with what seems like a giant city.
you would eventually just lose the effect of having vast forests and landscape.
this worked in fallout because it pretty much IS a big city. or suburbia depending on what you want to call it.

point is that you want skyrim to feel like you are exploring a place that hasn't been explored a lot in the past. it is traditional to the western fantasy rpg genera.
and i didn't really mind oblivion having a lot of caves and stuff because the elder scrolls has always been leaning towards the traditional rpg style, and dungeon crawling is a big part of that.

it also breaks immersion when you see a structure that should have been able to be seen from miles away pop up a few hundred feet in front of you. this was a problem i had in oblivion. so they also have that to consider. the more buildings/top side structures there are, the more you need to worry about technical limitations during development.

BUT! if they made the world say twice to four times the size of cyrodiil, your idea would work perfectly because then they could easily make the building to landscape ratio proportional.

oh how i wish they would just stop being stubborn and make the world bigger :confused:

» Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:38 am

I actually hope for more little things.

-Ruins of houses burnt down in the woods...maybe with leftover objects, notes, or clues as to what happened there (maybe these could even lead to unmarked quests for loot or information from people?

--Old campsites not marked on the map

-Hidden stashes of loot under bushes

-Caves and groves where animals live and stash trinkets they pick up.

-Secret quests, etc...

» Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:42 pm

View PostJaeld Alteir, on 15 February 2011 - 07:09 PM, said:
Lumber mill
Strip-mining camp
Water-mill
Brewery
Monasteries
Settlements with a unique hook or location, not just generic buildings on a road
Forest fire scorched area
A corrupted well consuming a village
A mass grave
Fortifications
A haunted hall
Sunken/wrecked fleet

Groves
Glacier Labyrinths
Mountain Terraces (and towns built on them)
Canyons

- Petrified village and/or forest
- Standing stones w/ optional bound/trapped ghost or daedra at their center
- Forgotten, overgrown graveyard w/ creepy gravekeeper NPC
- Ancient hidden palace w/ suspiciously life-like statues everywhere (gorgon boss!)
- Ruined church/temple (broken stained glass windows, please)
- Lonely hilltop cairn, covered in skulls and ancient wargear (defended by malevolent ghostly heroes)
- Floating wooden "fortress islands" on lakes (populated by small faction communities/traders or outlaws)
- Abandoned museum with sinister armoured statues lining the walls (who come to life and attack if anyone moves the exhibits)
- Fortified inn/tavern in the wilderness, converted from an abandoned fort/keep

Skystorm77's wall of good ideas:

Spoiler

Here are few of my ideas:

- Treetop fortresses built around trees for support, with branching multi-leveled hanging rope bridges with wooden planks, all built at varying heights and to different sizes and configurations, with a town hall, a church, and all the amenities ... just in the wild.

- A hidden city built in the cliff wall directly beneath a waterfall of massive-volume which is very. And the city's top and front face are made entirely of stained-glass windows that are always streaming down with water from the falls, creating an eternal movement effect when you look up. Most of the shops face out to the falling water and coloured glass, creating a wonderland of coloured light and shadows within it upon all finished surfaces that are made of polished marble stone and silver-based metallics.

- A city built on a very very large round tower that blots out the sky. All the buildings are built hanging-garden style along the outside perimeter, with some of the building external and some internal with the door opening to a hooden staircase built into the wall. The entire city can be navigated by climbing the stairs, accessing the attached structures which hang above the ground, and also by interconnected hallways and tunnels INSIDE the tower that skirt around the central core which is undisturbed from top to bottom by a large empty core which only the mages can access to fly from one part of the city (below) to the others (above) through magical means. Under the city, gained by going down through the central Mage Access core, is a huge cavern underworld of water and stalactites hanging down. It is a real lake under there. Beneath the water is the ruins of an ancient civilization whose doors are sealed by magical bubbles. If you go through them, you arrive in a dry underworld environment, an evil haunt, full of wretched monsters specific to this one dungeon only. And ghosts....

- An ancient temple overgrown with trees and weeds such that from the outside of the jungle it cannot even be seen. Once on the stones, you can barely see that these are ruins, and if you explore under behind some trees, you may find one old door leading into the city. But it may take a while to find that door, having to navigate the deeply-overgrown ruins for quite a long time before you can get to that door. The outdoor place is filled with giant snakes that are half-man (top half) and half snake, with a snake-face, who spit poison like acidic arrows of death and hiss at you all the time, who crawl in the stones under the ground and can surprise you by popping out of holes to attack you.

- The ruins of an old outdoor animal museum gone rogue, now fallen into disrepair, with tons of dangerous monsters now inhabiting the ruins which are now their favorite location. But there is a rumor of buried treasure there, hiding amidst the rubble, and you must dig...

- A mountain city built (staggered-ly) across numerous crags of stone jutting up thousands of feet into the air. The crags (and thus the different portions of the dangerously high city) are accessible via special stone bridges that connect the crags to each other and then back to the main portion of the mountain that leads back down to Skyrim via a series of criss-crossing trails. From here, one can look out and see nothing but mountain peaks rising all around them, but one cannot see the ground, which is lost in clouds and fog 1000's of feet below. If someone falls from the cliff, it can take minutes before they die, and they should scream the whole way down as the screen begins to fade to black (simulating that you pass out just before death). Dragons are often seen flying around this city due to its elevation, but they have special horns that are so loud it hurts Dragons' ears, and shake the mountains, causing them to tire of trying to bother that place. However, they can often be seen flying around the city, off in the distance.

- Shimmering desert orbs provide elemental magic resistance to sand only, allowing humans to enter an "Oasis" undisturbed. Inside are stone courtyards with several shops and a bazaar for buying many things, while there is always at least one Mansion owned by a rich desert Lord or Prince ... There is a place to recharge your water supplies for your travels through the desert. Every day they are replenished by special Desert Couriers riding Elephants stocked with supplies. You an often follow such elephant teams in order to help you FIND your way IN to the Oasis, as long as you don't follow too closely and get attacked by the Guards protecting them.

Then are all for now ....

These are all really good ideas and I really do agree that having landmarks and places to explore in the world would be great. I don't know who here has played the Oblivion mod Nherim, but that had some interesting things to find in the world even if they were just interesting landmarks. I am sure that they have included things like this, based on what we have seen so far in the screenshots and we are still something like nine months from release. So aside from the list of things here, all of which I think would be fun to see, here is my list:

- a burial mound with maybe standing stones at the crest, perhaps a shrine to one of the gods in the center. Something simple but powerful. Beneath the mound would be a viking style burial of some Nord warlord of centuries passed. He would be buried in a ritual long ship, like some that have been found in Iceland and Scandinavia. He would be buried with some awesome item, perhaps a hunting horn that gives you some bonus, or a shield or weapon. However, when you take this item, he will reanimate to try and stop you, along with his warriors which would be buried along the walls. He should be a medium level boss, not too over powerful, as the item wouldn't be too epic.

- A village along the very northern coast in which resides an extended family of people who make their living off of the sea. Their homes and weapons and such would be made from the ivory of walrus tusks (which would be over sized as this is fantasy and I demand huge walrus....) and also mammoth and similar things. They would go out to the ice flows and hunt whales, walrus, seals, and other norther marine life. Perhaps there would be a quest to go with them on a hunting expedition and you could get some awesome ivory..... something.

- An ancient dam, perhaps carved with the faces of forgotten kings carved into the face. Their mouths would be open to let the water flow, perhaps it is in an extreme state of disrepair or partially submerged in a semi-frozen lake. (good hide out for the ice vampires.)

- A rather large broken bridge or aqueduct of some kind that extends for miles.

- An ancient library of epic proportions.... and I mean epic. On the outside it should be a very large building, with many spires, bridges, flying buttresses, and terraces. It would be more like a small city in one large building. There would be every kind of book, scroll and tablet imaginable, with many side quests.

.....I am sure I could think of more... but that is all I have for now.

» Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:18 am

I want to see a Necropolis, a mass-burial city. Perhaps as a huge necromancer lair or something.

» Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:54 pm

I agree 100% with the OP! In addition:
The world shouldn't show Ruins and Dungeons and cities near us on our compass unless we know it is there, in Oblivion you always knew miles away that there was a dungeon coming up, somehow imo making the world seem much smaller.

The cities should be built around specific areas just as OP said, like in Fo3 rivet city and megaton for example. A city built around a mountain side would have huge differences in the height of where buildings are. The great hall would obviously be part of the mountain itself, with a corridor leading straight down into the mountain to make it feel huge and ancient.

A city built very close to an extremely steep cliff and the sea side could have part of the houses built on water, attached to the steep cliff side in a somewhat realistic way to make it feel like the city wasn't placed there first, but the environment.

i like that that... would be amazing