Hi everyone,

So, recently I've been reading a few bits of lore about Nirn's mages and I started wondering who the top 10 most powerful mages are (not counting things like Sotha Sil using the Heart of Lorkhan to become immortal).

So, as the topic title suggests, who would you all rank as being the top 10 most powerful mages in TES lore history?

Divayth Fyr and Mannimarco come to mind.
Jagar Tharn


I am realizing I don't know that many

Mannimarco, Shalidor, Divayth Fyr, Jagar Tharn, Sotha Sil, King Orgnum, Galerion, Kagrenac. Not sure who else though.

Well I would say the first would be Kagrenac, what with the whole creating a Time-[censored]-Robot-God-That-Will-Probably-Destroy-Nirn (TRRGTWPDN). Other, than that, in no particular order, I would say some powerful mages are Pynaster (Became a god), Shalidor (possibly the greatest Mannish mage), Divayth Fyr (Seeing as how he is four thousand years old and was able to make female clones of himself), Umaril possibly (I don't know how much of his power was his own, and how much was granted to him by Meridia), Chimere Graegyn (certainly owed some credit for managing to troll Mehrunes Dagon) Mannimarco (first lich) possibly the Underking, Mankar Camoran (who did all sorts of crazy things), Vanus Galerion, maybe Morokei, and of course Sotha Sil (I know you said not to count people who used the Heart of Lorkhan, but I am still going to say Sotha Sil, because the pre-divine version of him was still pretty powerful)

So ultimately I would say

1. Kagrenac

2. Mankar Camoran

3. Mannimarco

4. Phynaster

5. Divayth Fyr

6. Sotha Sil (pre-divine)

7. Shalidor

8. Vanus Galerion

9. Jagar Tharn

10. Chimere Graegyn

Again, Umaril probably belongs in there, but I am not sure exactly how powerful he is.

Not counting Sotha Sil because of the heart is a stupid thing to do. Sotha Sil is still a very intelligent mage, his godhood means little when we consider his genius and magical prowess. It's like saying we shouldn't count a mage who used an enchantment or changed something about themselves to become more powerful. Hell, one could say that him being able to figure out how to obtain godhood through the heart without disappearing like the Dwemer makes him even more powerful and intelligent then anyone else.

If anything pre-divine and divine Sotha Sil is the top of the list of mages and just because he obtained godhood through the heart means literally nothing.

Ignoring other forms of magic like Thu'um, Sword-Singing etc. Here are my thoughts.

Sotha Sil might have become a god but he was always a powerful mage and I think even without his divinity he would have been one of the most powerful today. Close to four-thousand years old at the time of his death he constructed the Clockwork City, helped fight and banish Mehrunes Dagon from Tamriel and was at one time a member of the Psijic Order.

Dagoth Ur like Sotha Sil he became quasi-Divine but he was reputed to be a powerful mage before the events of the Heart. From Vivec's own mouth he is described as being "older than we, and a mighty sorcerer and enchanted in life".

Phynaster, now worshipped as a god/ancestor was an Aldmer/Altmer who lived in the Merethic or First Era. His most notable feats were teaching the Altmer how to extend their lives by one hundred years and creating the "Ring of Phynaster".

Shalidor was a First Era mage. His feats are likely to be largely exaggerated but regardless his was no doubt exceptionally powerful. A quote from the book, A Minor Maze, "Various tales tell of him battling Dwemer legions single-handedly, building the city of Winterhold with a whispered spell, stealing the secret of life from Akatosh, or constructing Labyrinthian himself".

Kagrenac was the chief dwemer mage-architect and was responsible for creating "Kagrenac's Tools" and later Numidium.

Orgnum is the king of the maormers and is described in a book as being "a deathless wizard". He is supposedly old enough to have lived in Aldmeris which would put him at over 5,000 years old and likely the oldest on this list.

Mannimarco is widely considered to be the "first lich" in history. I think it's debatable but it doesn't really matter. He's over 1,100 years old and is easily the most famous necromancer in Tamriel.

Divayth Fyr is the oldest Telvanni mage. He is "a 4000-year-old wizard" (as of 3E 375) and his daughter/clone refers to him as being "probably the oldest and most powerful wizard alive. Not counting liches, or divine sorcerers like Vivec, of course. And there may be some older in the West, on Summerset Isles, perhaps". And yes, he can create clones of himself.

I'm a huge fan of Ahzidal. He's older than Divayth and has knowledge of "ancient runes and dawn-magic even the elves had begun to forget". Too bad they just turned him into another generic dungeon boss in Skyrim.

Iachesis was the leader of the Psijic Order and older than Divayth Fyr, born in the very earlier First Era, so I'm sure he is powerful. The last time we hear of him is in 3E 110 so he is likely still alive.

The story of Hasedoki was a good one (you can read about it by looking up the Staff of Hasedoki). Hasedoki was a wondering mage who challenged other mages to duels. Apparently he never found anyone who could best him. That doesn't mean he is necessarily the most powerful but worth a mention at least.

Like Ahzidal, I have always been disappointed with how Bethesda implemented the King of Miscarcand. This ancient Ayleid king lich who should be close to, or even surpassing, Divayth's age is treated no differently than any other lich you find in a cave. No dialogue and no real point. Just a waste.

Azra Nightwielder was the creator of Shadow Magic. Probably not deserving of being on this list but I think he deserves a mention for his discovery of Shadow Magic.

I was never been impressed by Jagar Tharn, I mean what exactly is it that warrants his place as one of the most powerful mages? Infamous, cunning and certainly powerful he might be but he never struck me as being anything more than "Mages Guild Archmage level".

Mankar Camoran might been instrumental in assisting Dagon with his invasion of Tamriel but I question whether or not it was anything that any other archmage could not do. I think it would come down to whether or not he actually created his Paradise or whether it was largely Dagon's doing (from memory there is something about it actually just being part of Dagon's realm).

I've always considered the legacy Vanus Galerion left behind (the Mages Guild) to have led people to exaggerate his strength as a mage. I think Mannimarco is significantly stronger (since he is significantly older). He probably misses out on making the list.

No love for Ahzidal? Sure, he might not have the mythic importance some of the other mages in the setting has, but holy hell did the bugger work hard at his craft. His reaction to having his home get burned down was to get really friggin pissed, wander around Tamriel (In a fairly short time frame, depending on when the 500 returned to Tamriel), learned a whole bunch of really obscure magical arts, including the Dragons own non-thu'um based arts and the Dwemer of all things, and turned everything he learned towards turning those frosty goldenrods into finely shaven snowcones. Might not be the most academic use of his talents, but the sheer hot-bloodedness of it all makes up for it.

Would be nice if we could get some more lore on Zurin Arctus. I'd imagine he's a top contender here.

Agreed, Zurin is criminally underdeveloped. He needs more love. I like an idea a few people at Memospore had of Zurin being one of the Tsaesci potentates from the second era in disguise.

Mankar Camoran made himself Dragonborn by reshaping the past; he didn't need no stinkin' Heart, either. Anyone else do that?

Zurin/Wulfharth blew up the Numidium. That's crazy stuff. The entire Aldmeri army couldn't do that, and they do space and time travel.

Does the Camoran Usurper deserve a slot? Not as godly as Mannimarco, but he conjured/re-animated legions of undead and Daedra and almost took over western Tamriel.

He's worthy to be on the list. I mean Shadow Magic actually links alternative universes. Also, don't forget that Neloth recognized Azra as an expert on enchantment of staves, so Shadow Magic isn't the only thing he's known for.

Also I'm a little stunned that no one has mentioned Miraak. Also Relmyna Verenim & Nulfaga & Sinderion probably deserve to be listed. Although maybe on a "Top 20" rather than "Top 10."

Edit: Along with some of the Direnni Clan, like Raven Direnni.

Oh yea, totally forgot about Azra. I think it was more then just linking alternative universes, the practice was to make it so the person was in complete synch with their other selves and could see into every universe at once as well as control the part of them in the other universes. That's some crazy stuff.

I dunno. Miraak certainly is powerful since he's an effin fire breathing Dragonborn, but his abilities as a mage didn't seem that impressive to me during our battle with him. I guess you could make the case that since the other Dragon Priests are shown to be powerful mages, Miraak would probably be one as well and his portrayal in-game is just game mechanics at work to prevent him from being too difficult to defeat or something... but I would argue that it's also possible that he was accepted into the higher echelons of the Dragon Cult because of his status as Dragonborn similar to how our character can be accepted into the CoW during the main quest.

I don't know if this excludes him from top 10/20 most powerful mages in Tamriel since he is powerful and he is a mage, but it's something to think about.

In regards to Sinderion, does alchemy actually count as magic? I always thought it was just mashing ingredients together but then again I've never looked into the lore side to see if it's a more magical process.

There are some skil books for the Nightblade in TESO that links the class to Shadow Magic: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Shadow_Draining:_A_Hypothesis%C2%A0http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Stepping_through_Shadows

As for a specific mention of the list, Shalidor, we see in TESO, enchanted his soul to return to Tamriel whenever mage-kind was endangered to aid them.

The Dragon Priests are largely unknown, since we have very little lore of just how powerful they were, besides that they seem to be among the first to achieve lichdom(in some form or another). And Vahlok seems to be pretty powerful.

Edit: Regarding Sotha Sil, shouldn't his rise to godhood techincally be a feat of Kagrenac? After all, he is the one who deviced a way to utilize the power of the Heart of Lorkhan.

Kagrenac wrote how to manipulate the heart but failed in making the dwemer into gods but instead into the skin of one god. Sotha Sil and Dagoth Ur both used the formula and improved on Kagrenac's work in order to make the process work as intended.

Well, in Morrowind and Oblivion it was considered a magic skill, which is where I originally got into the Elder Scrolls universe, though in Skyrim they turned it into the Stealth crafting skill. As far as I can tell, its not the mixing and meshing of ingredients that is magical, but rather bringing out the magical properties of the ingredients themselves that's magical. Potions can allow you to levitate, to become invisible, to burden someone's stride...all very magical.

And create portals to really obscure planes, like Soul Cairn.