You mean he presented the Jarls with the choice they weren't given, as Balgruuf is kind enough to point out to us.

Skyrim had a choice, they are just too blind to see that they already made it.

@Tdroid: I bet the Redguards weren't given a chance either, but they spoke put against it anyways.

I missed no point at all considering what she said was. 'If you don't consider the existential threat of the Thalmor invading all of Tamriel as true need, you won't accept anything as true need.' sounds an aweful lot like the thalmor to me. too bad Ulfric didn't use it on a thalmor agent though, he used it on one of their own.

1. Who exactly are you, or even is Ulfric for that matter to be deciding what the proper use of the Thu'um is?

2. The Empire themselves are planning for round two against the Thalmor too. They didn't need to Thu'um a king to death to prepare though.

3. Now this your right about everyone who isn't the thalmor does need to use everything at their disposal. It would sure be nice then if a certain Nord didn't kill the high King and start this civil war in the first place. Now non-Thalmor lives and resources are being wasted in a war against other non-Thalmor, and still no high king or queen on the throne because it is too dangerous for the Moot to convene. boy that duel sure did Skyrim a lot of good...

Bah sorry my post meant to say prove he was forced to join. I don't disagree he was a boy when he joined. I hit enter too early lol.

And who are you or the Greybeards to decide on that?

Appreciated.

Continuing on my last point:

Basically, I think a major part of Ulfric's motive besides plain use of power was that he simply is the type of a guy who thinks he is the only one who knows how things should go, and doesn't trust anyone else to wield Skyrim's true interests at heart. Ulfric is a natural first. He would never be content being a petty Jarl taking orders from Solitude. The man wanted to be king because, the visionary that he is, he had a clear idea on how Skyrim should develop, who are her enemies, and how they should be dealt with. If Ulfric had convinced Torygg to secede it would be Torygg, not Ulfric, that would be guiding Skyrim to its independent future. Would Ulfric trust Torygg with such a mission? I heavily doubt that. By killing Torygg Ulfric not only appealed to the "Nord tradishun" group, but also eliminated all competition for his plans and ensured that once the dust falls down Skyrim would only follow his command instead of being just the middle man in another king's chessboard.

I would also perhaps compare him to Thomas Sankara. An African liberator who usurped power in Upper Volta (modern Burkina Faso), turned the country upside down to promote pro-African ideals, but despite his immense success at modernizing and developing the country he was overcome by his own power, resorted to tyranny and for that was assassinated by his friends and the French secret service. Sankara, like Ulfric, was a visionary leader who could not just sit around as the second, he could rest only when there is nothing but sky above him. Of course, Ulfric would likely have a happier ending should he win but I feel that the two man are quite alike.

There is no "proper use" of the Thu'um in my opinion.

He was a child. You don't ask children to make a choice that will bind them for the rest of their lives, because they are incapable of making an informed decision on the topic. How hard is this to get?

So why condemn Ulfric using it then? An objection of it being against Nordic tradition has no ground, but you still object to it being used in the duel.

probably because it's Ulfric.

Ulfric used it, which is the improper way. The only proper way of the voice is no use at all.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1472622-torygg-and-ulfric-duel-or-persuasion/?p=22986156

Now you are contradicting yourself. You just said there was no proper way of the voice, now you say there is. Please make up your mind.

There is no need for the Thu'um at all. Using it in any way is an improper use of it, as there is no need for it.

i think both options are ok the first one is the most civilazed one and the one i would go first if it didn′t worked i would then challenge Torygg for the Duel.

A self-contradictory statement. You can't say that there is no proper way to use it, only to continue by saying the only proper way is to not use it at all. A semantic word-trick doesn't change the fact that you are, in the later half of this post, giving rules for how the Thu'um should be used, directly contradicting the earlier half of the sentence. Again, please make up your mind.

Who are you or the Greybeards? I'm not the one calling Uflric out for using it inappropriately. The thu'um was Kyne's gift to all the Nords as an instrument of war. Maybe they didn't need it anymore during the years of the Septim empire, but a mere glance at events in Tamriel shows they need it now. If you want, stand there and wring your hands over scruples about the misuse of an esoteric philosophy while the Thalmor steamroll over you with dawn magicks or whatever else they've got up their sleeve. Ulfric sees the writing on the wall, and his use of the thu'um in the duel is a call to war, not just to the empire but to the Thalmor.

They also lost the last campaign and have been showing extremely poor leadership. Waiting around hoping the legion will save you is recipe for the same steamrolling I talked about above. If the last 200 years of Tamriel history has taught the Nords anything, it should be that they need to rely on themselves and no one else to defend them.

In other words, IF Ulfric never shouted in his life, he would have my respect.

The only way of the voice is no way of the voice. In other words, No Shouting is the proper way of Shouting.

According to traditional Nordic customs, the duel was clearly legal.

Then again, the Old Ways are not practiced anymore by a large portion of the population, including Elisif apparently. Long periods of Imperial rule have changed the accepted customs.

Its a war between the Old Ways and the New and only the strength of arms will decide who is right.

Agreed.

Ulfric should've worked with Torygg; it would've been a more united/stronger Skyrim that way.

All of Torygg's concerns about what would happen if he left wouldnt have been hard to deal with.

This way only the Thalmor wins

If Ulfric never shouted he would have your respects? What sort of justification for disliking Ulfric is this? He can shout? Something, which I feel I have explained too many times already, he didn't even have a choice in learning. You might as well dislike him because he was the son of his father or because his hair in blond or because he is male in gender.

Why no one except me is quoting you is beyond me, lol.

Nordjitsu, good to see you on here bro.