There is only less deaths if there is a certain someone interfering. since it is likely there won't be a resolution to avoid angering fans of the other side, the war costs 20-25 people a month than the 5-10 peopel that get caught worshiping Talos by the Thalmor.

But like I said, neither choice was an option because neither Torygg or Ulfric should have been High King candidates. Whiterun is by far the safest City outside of direct Imperial control.

On the topic itself, given what we know about Torygg and his stance, I think that an attempt by Ulfric to talk to Torygg about secession is unrealistic. The only one that mentions Torygg respecting Ulfric is Sybille Stentor, and she essentially says that even if Torygg respected him, he would have sided with the Empire. To outsiders, we know very little, except that Torygg used to make speeches about the "Empire this and the Empire that".

Sybille Stentor:

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c069a

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c07ee

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c0695

Sayma:

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c0fd3

Would it have been? I mean, if he went to the High King and asked him to secede, he would be committing treason. As best we can tell, Ulfric had one chance at an audience with Torygg.

But as Sybille said, "In terms just shy of treason". He didn't out right say that.

If I'm wrong (probably), please correct and with a link preferably.

Sybille says he spoke about Skyrim's independence in terms just sky of treason, as you pointed out. Given that Skyrim is a province of the Empire, that is as close to telling the Jarls he wants them to secede from the Empire as he gets without being arrested on the spot. If anyone at that Moot didn't get the message, they'd have to be very dense.

Lets use your anology here.

Let T = 200 and represent time remaining until thalmor is prepared to wipe out all of humanity

26 time units have happened before civil war, resulting in 130-260 deaths

CW goes on for at most 5.

So we have 100-125 people dying in the civil war so that it ends with no continuing loss due to thalmor patrols.

compared to 25-50 people if it hadn't happened, BUT people continue to die for the remaining 169 T, totalling in over 500 dead and an eventual thalmor victory killing everyone in cyrodiil, skyrim, high rock, and hammerfell

so we have civil war with 230-385 deaths

or we have thalmor killing everyone.

Why are you rooting for option 2

(actually if he's using months, multiply everything by 12.)

I was talking specifically about Skyrim's population and the immediacy of the war's deaths. Over a period of time, the Civil War will have claimed more lives than the Thalmor would have, because the War is the Thalmor plot to weaken humanity. Best to have never let it get this far.

My barbarian character is of the opinion I "am" when it comes to this, and that is that neither the Stormcloaks or the Wimperial lovers are true nords.

*polite applause*

Well said mortal, well said. It is of course, this very reason,

That he, and the rest of his "kin" are corruptions of the Atmoran name. The Nordic ancestry. Goblins preaching about the Old ways. What do these delusional heathens actually know of the Old Ways? Insulting is what it is. *spits*

In other words, everyone with common sense knew what he was saying, clearly or they wouldn't have expected Ulfric to come and talk with Torygg about seceding.

You keep making this argument. I find it silly. Do you seriously think the thalmor are just going to wait forever.

Of course civil wars bring more deaths.

I said that both are viable. Ulfric could have continued to try to persuade Torygg using words and political pressure, but the longer and louder he did this, he was risking having the imperial supporters turn on him just as they did in Markarth. The more time that passed, the more innocent people would be harassed, tortured and murdered by Thalmor justiciars, an intolerable circumstance. All that was happening under Torygg's watch and from several accounts, all he was good for was making speeches about the empire and (as his own wife says) going to parties.

However, Torygg doesn't get all the blame for lack of leadership. Titus Mede II apparently didn't think it worth coming to Skyrim to assure the jarls that the WGC was temporary. He sent chests of gold and showed up only because his rich cousin got murdered. It's not hard to see why regular people, the kind who bleed and die in wars, would lose confidence in leaders who care only about lining their pockets with Thalmor gold.

She says he was "continually talking about Skyrim's independence."
http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c069a

The cause of those deaths?

Think of the Empire like a business enterprise, and the provinces as investors. The Nords hear about the "direction" of the Empire (taking the WGC) and are told that they "had" to accept it. They had the choice to back out as soon as they were "told" what to do. They could have pulled their money (read support) out as soon as that happened. They chose to keep in, and accept that they had to support the WGC, even though they hated it.

The nords let it get this far, and they deserve what they get.

Which ones? It's going off of Stone's anology about civil war deaths and thalmor justiciar torturing people deaths.

"I deserved to get mugged, I was carrying a wallet"

Victim blaming is a wonderful stance to take on any matter.

He was saying things "just shy of treason," according to Sybille, and none of it was directly to Torygg.

100-125 vs. 25-50. Yeah, ok.

Try 200-300 vs. 5-15. Now divide that by 5 because only a fraction of those tortures actually lead to death.

I agree somewhat. I think that had Ulfric continued to push Torryg like he pushes now, Torryg would have done it. He just needed more time.

How do you know that? They almost never escape remember?

Not according to Sybille.

Proof? Every single nord says they disappear and never return. I'm sure the dead bodies at talos shrines aren't self inflicted

Would he? I'm not convinced. http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c0695

Player: http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c068c

Sybille: Because the Dominion is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the Imperial army even now.

Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people.

Because even if we can't openly worship him, Talos the god was once Tiber Septim the man, and this is his Empire.

And Torygg wasn't ready to let it fall apart.

My first time being Ninja'd


And why not? Evidently they did, cause when he came into the Blue Palace that is literally what they were expecting.

And yet, Torygg was not fit to be High King. just like Ulfric is not fit to be Jarl of Windhelm.

That's what I'm saying. They did expect it, so obviously he said enough to know what he wanted. So saying that he should have spoke to Torygg and flat out say lets secede, which would immediately make him a traitor and risk arrest is like saying he should have spelled it out for Torygg because he's too stupid to get it otherwise.

What are you even talking about and how does that relate to what the quote says...