How is that relevant to anything, this assertion of yours?

Btw, I LOVE your most recent status update

Torygg was at that moot and being elected king. If he was so vacant that he didn't understand this applied to him and his new office, that just proves Ulfric's point that there was an empty chair at the head of the country.

All you're saying is that Skyrim should have left the empire much earlier. I agree, but there wasn't a strong enough impetus before the WGC. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Skyrim%27s_Rule had been saying as much even before that.

And how many more are tortured as a result of the war? Because the Stormcloaks pretty much have a giant light-bulb over their heads. Most of the torture victims I see are not surprisingly, Soldiers. More specifically, Stormcloak soldiers.

The duel was a bit unnecessary as Torygg respected Ulfric and would've listened to reason but it's still acceptable as that's the old ways of Skryim which is what Ulfric is fighting to return to (aside from his ambitions). My only problem with the duel was that Ulfric used the thu'um which was an unfair advantage over an already weaker opponent.

So its better to leave things as they are than to try and change them? Things get worse before they get better. A common phrase.

I think we can all agree on that the Civil War made Skyrim weaker and maybe even the Thalmor stronger.

The duel was unnecessary because it should never have happened. Skyrim made it's bed, now it should have to lie in it.

@Tdroid: This is off-topic, but what status update?

I'm sure if I gave two septims worth a damn about Talos, I might get a little hot-headed too. But the fact remains that. If Ulfric didn't stir up trouble, the Empire would have been just about ready to break the WGC.

More like the Empire made it's deathbed and it should lie in it.

I'm sure we can all agree so did the WGC, and letting it stay was a terrible move, letting the enemy spy in your territory.

According to what? Tullius' words? They've probably been saying they'll fight soon since the WGC was signed. Tullius' words aren't very reassuring, and even if this were true, it isn't common knowledge. So all Ulfric and everyone else knows is that for 26 years, their children haven't known religious freedom and they want it ended.

edit: Why shouldn't you care for their right just because you don't like Talos? Is religious freedom not important for all?

Almost everything that happened from 4E 170 - 4E 201 made the Empire and all the provinces weaker and the Thalmor much stronger.

Or, you know, they can get up and try to make an improvement on the bed instead of lying uncomfortably. What makes you think Skyrim was in a position to try to secede earlier? There was a great deal of Nords who died in the Great War, enough was sent south to let the Reachmen rise up and it couldn't be fixed before the war was over. And Sybille mentions that http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c06a2 for 25 years before he died. Saying that the Nords should have rebelled earlier is an entirely pointless argument to make, because they are rebelling now.

And I am talking about https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6qpq3FrJbxjUF9qcHgzUU9XYkE/editstatus. Pure brilliance.

And the nords made theirs by not breaking away before this mess happened. The Nords have lost themselves, and Ulfric is absolutely not helping.

As Tdroid said above, it would have been pointless for the Nords to secede before the introduction of the WGC.

I was talking about when they were told to accept the WGC, they could have given Mede the finger or told him to go screw himself unless he broke/ignored the WGC.

That is not what I said though. I gave some reasons for why the rebellion didn't happen right after the WGC. If it was up to me, Skyrim would have left the Empire 200 years ago, when the Septim bloodline ended.

I think I gave an answer to that already.

If they would have done that right after the WGC was signed, the Thalmor would have not only the perfect opportunity to weaken the empire even more but also a reason why to attack the province with the biggest amount ot Talos worshippers in Tamriel.

and what is the point of rebelling now, when they could have, and should have backed out before the Civil War began?

Ulfric made the right choice as far as his cause is concerned. In Nord culture he comes far better off when he shows his muscles and strikes him dead. To the Nord, talking is weakness and Ulfric most of all wants the support of the common Nord, the farmer who doesn't know what happens outside his farm and only knows that the Thalmor took his wife last night. Killing Torygg fulfilled the Nords' collective 1+1 logic. Ulfric uses power, then he must be a powerful man. If Ulfric had talked, it would imply that he is afraid of Torygg.

Besides Torygg may have sympathized with Ulfric but he was an Imperial at heart. I doubt the people would fully trust him, and I doubt Ulfric would be content with being Jarl of Windhelm when he has so grandiose goals for his nation. Ulfric would probably turn out like Ricimer, if you know any Roman history.

EDIT: Silly typos.

Decimated? The Thalmor almost sacked the Imperial City, how could they have been decimated? I mean, why do you think did Titus Mede II want to sign a "peace" treaty with the Thalmor? Because he knew that they can't be stopped without the help of all the other provinces and that they would have overrun the Empire.

I would have a lot more respect for Ulfric if:

A. He didn't use the Thu'um to kill Toryyg because he took that oath as a Greybeard for a reason.

B. After he did it why run? Yeah they would have tried to arrest him again but he can easily spout all that stuff about the old ways and having the right to be high king now in front of other people. In my eyes from the get-go, him running just makes him look like he knew he did wrong and better get back to his own fort so he won't have to deal with the consequences of his treason. At the very least stay in the city and take sanctuary inside of the cities church. He acted like some shady common politician that hides away after making his political move.

The battle of Red Ring anc the war with the Redguards, that is how. they sent their entire invasion force to take both Hammerfell and Cyrodiil, and lost badly.

I don't remember the greybeards ever mentioning an exception. They generally say the Voice isn't meant to be used for personal goals.

That said, the ancient Tongues didn't follow the Way of the Voice and they're still remembered as heroes.

Its said in the lore that the greybeards are only to use their voices in times of true need, which is open to interpretation if you ask me.

Contrary to popular misconceptions, the Greybeards are not, strictly speaking, pacifists; the Way of the Voice teaches only that violence is the least of the Voice's uses, and it should be used for that purpose only in times of "True Need".^{http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Greybeards#cite_note-Hrothgar-6}

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Greybeards