So why shouldn't they try to fix that mistake now? That is the part I am not getting here. What about them not having rebelled before now invalidates they rebellion? Seems like an ad hoc(it is ad hoc, right? I get some of those "ad" things mixed up at times) justification, to have some ground for condemning the rebellion that tries to break Skyrim away from what you yourself has described like so:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6qpq3FrJbxjM3lqY2tqQ2lSRGs/edit

The Thalmor lost their invasion army and couldn't keep Hammerfell territory. While in better shape than the Empire, the loss at Red Ring seems to have been significant at their military might. Sustaining an invasion of a land with Skyrim's borders across half a continent wouldn't have been realistic.

As a child. Taking an oath as a child is not the same as taking an oath as an advlt, and, as far as I am concerned, no one should be forced to hold to an oath they took as a child, because you're not capable of making such decisions at the time. He was never given a choice in following the Way of the Voice, being sent to High Hrothgar as a lad. When the Great War broke out, he made his choice and that was to not follow the Way of the Voice.

And no one should have to make a choice they did not want. Again, neither side is fit for the Throne. Torygg should not have been on it, but Ulfric should have thought things through.

If they broke away earlier, they would not have had to have a Civil war now.

And I think he did. After all:

Nothing suggests he didn't. People only say he didn't because the action he took was a violent one. They say he should have spoke to Torygg even though Torygg already heard him at the moot and everyone knew what he was about. To Ulfric, clearly the fact that Torygg hadn't said anything to him on it was a sign that he wasn't budging, as he couldn't possibly read Torygg's mind. And Sybille admitted it wasn't happening anyway.

Nothing to say he did think it through either. Plus, not saying anything is not the same as sticking to your "guns". Maybe Torygg was waiting for a sign that he should, and it never came because Ulfric killed him before it did?

I've never heard of the concept of sanctuary in the Elder Scrolls context. Asking why he ran is basically asking why he didn't put his own head on a block and wait for the axe to fall. Obviously since he made the challenge in the old, accepted way (as Sybille even admits) and it was accepted, and he hadn't come with an army in the first place, he probably assumed that the results would also be accepted. But when people are shouting "arrest him!," it's high time to book it out of Dodge.

As far as the thu'um, IMO it's the Greybeards who have misused it by hoarding it to themselves and those who accept their philosophy. This is just an argument about the status quo remaining the status quo. Ulfric is a revolutionary. Viva la revolucion.

That excuse doesn't fly with me. He took an Oath from one of the most respected people in his culture and broke one of the parts of the Oath. I can pretty much guarantee using the power to gain political power for any reason what-so-ever isn't what they count as true need. 'true need' sounds more like using it to save lives than use for vanity purposes. I bet that's why Arngeir sounds disappointed when asked about Ulfric.

First, that isn't true. Obviously he had if he bothered to bring it up at the moot first.

Second, Ulfric didn't have all Era to wait. Torygg had his chance to speak and he passed it up. And this is irrelevant, since again:

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1472622-torygg-and-ulfric-duel-or-persuasion/?p=22985979

Meh that would be a good concept to have on Tamriel too....

Either way though what he did still makes him just look like a common polotician-chump to me. Still makes me feel the way I feel.

If he thought it through more thoroughly, he would have realized that War is not what Skyrim Needs right now (IT is in a good place against the Thalmor, who he wants to kill, anyways).

Sometimes what one does not want, is what one needs. Maybe Torygg not responding to him the gods Telling Ulfric to let this problem go, and he merely misinterpreted the message.

That isn't what Arngeir's dialogue tries to convey in the game.

"So you've done it. The men of violence are gathered here, in these halls whose very stones are dedicated to peace."

Again, you're holding someone who had no choice in the matter to a promise they didn't make of their own choosing. I think this is another ac hoc justification for condemning the opposing side, because this argument is not based in anything that can be considered moral. Forcing someone to adhere to an oath they didn't have a choice in is the same as just forcing them to follow the oath without taking it.

Like I said in my last post I have a strong feeling 'true need' has more to do with using it to directly save lives than using it to send messages.

Lol so the pacifist Grey Beards forced Ulfric up on that mountain and made him attempt to become one of them? I buy into that reasoning than him killing Toryg with it counting as true need.

I wouldn't go convincing yourself that ulfric had to be forced to train under pretty much the most respected people in his beloved skyrim. And it's really not my problem at all if he was a child when he took it. He misused it under the teachings that helped him learn it in the first place. End of story.

I go by what the lore says, not some preachy old man. And in his eyes up on his mountain, all he sees is violence and not why the violence is happening. Ulfric originally left them to fight in the great war. No one seems to look down on him for that.

Sending that message was the first step to saving lives. A civil war is a process leading to an end. And true need is open to interpretation. What should matter is if Ulfric truly thought it was necessary, which we can go back and forth on all day.

So what? Kyne gave the thu'um to all the Nords as a means of war. If you don't consider the existential threat of the Thalmor invading all of Tamriel as true need, you won't accept anything as true need.

Ulfric was sent as a child to train with the Greybeards. He had no choice in it. He may have liked it, btu that is irrelevant. When the choice presented itself, he chose to leave the Way behind. That is the choice that matters, the one he made of his own accord. He had no choice in learning the Thu'um, or in taking the oath that goes along with it.

Your comment on it not being your problem really is the heart of the issue. No matter how you rationalize it, the fact remains that you are advocating people being forced to adhere to an oath they had no choice in taking. How you can stare in the face of this and just ignore it is beyond me.

What matters even more is if we the people here think his reason counts as true need or not, and to me it doesn't. I think he simply used it to make himself look cool. Hes kind-of a glory-[censored] like that.

I'm pretty certain Toryyg isn't a thalmor, but nice try.

Your going to have to prove it to me beyond all doubt that they forced him into joining them before I go believing it.

You make a very good point.

Doesn't surprise me really.

You missed the point, severely. Killing Torygg was the first step he took in the path to removing them from Skyrim. She wasn't saying he was Thalmor?

He's restoring the thu'um to its proper uses, which Nords and all of Tamriel need now more than ever. Torygg was just an obstacle to being able to fight back against the WGC. You're thinking small, Ulfric is thinking big. The anti-Dominion forces even at greater strength could only manage a standstill with the Thalmor. If they don't start using all the weapons they have at their disposal, round two is going to go just the same or worse.

Easy.

We know that Ulfric joined the Empire before the Great War fell, which would have been in 4E174. Two years after that he could shout with enough power to break down the Markarth city gates, and we have Arngeir telling us that it takes years of training to even be able to attempt a single shout for non-Dragonborn. We know that his must have been trained before the Great War because of this. The Great War started 30 years ago. Him being human also gives him a more limited lifespan, reducing the age he could have been when he joined up based on the fact that he is not an old man by the time the game starts.

We also know, as I already rbought up, that it takes many years to learn a single Thu'um, making his own claim that he spent ten years in High Hrothgar a very plausible one. Combining this with the probable age he could have been within when he joined the Legion between 171 and 174, with his own claim that he was chosen by the Greybeards and sent to High Hrothgar as a child( http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000bfc4a ) puts the time of when he was chosen to learn the Thu'um easily in his childhood.

The only way you "can" dispute this is if you start with the assumption that Ulfric is lying and ignore all the other evidence that backs up his claims.

For some reason, Ulfric's actions look like to me like he wants to pull Skyrim out of the Choice it made. That is not something a true Nord would do.

http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000da24e