Travel Choices for Elder Scrolls V : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:32 pm

I think oblivion's fast travel was better than morrowind. They should just put an
option to turn off/on fast travel.

Oh, when people use the word "better" without an explanation, that is what causes uber flaming.

And, I would like to refer you to either my sig, or the various comments on this thread. turning it off/on ISN'T an option.

I seriously don't get it. If they implemented a Morrowind-style fast travel, everyone would be happy. Us who like Morrowind's system would be happy, for obvious reasons, and those who like the instant teleport to anywhere in the game system, could easily mod it in. There's various mods in Morrowind that add the silly method.

Modding in Morrowind style fast travel, on the other hand, wouldn't make us happy. The game would be centered around fast travel, and it wouldn't work properly for us - regardless of what you say. (Look at Oblivion mods)

Oblivion fast travel added in to a Morrowind styled game, wouldn't detract from the game, because you can still do exactly the same, and it wouldbe impossible to make it not work for fast travel, all it does is make the game stupidly easier.

But they where only in Morrowind but if they export them then maybe.

A lot of people fail to realise that Vvardenfell isn't the only part of Morrowind. Morrowind is attached to Black Marsh and Cyrodiil (There are paths through the mountains). I wouldn't see reason for Morrowind animals to be anywhere outside Morrowind, apart from Summerset Isles, or Akavir.

And, assuming someone is going to change thier minds, and say that these animals are now only native to Vvardenfell, Vvardenfell isn't far away from Morrowind, there's only half a mileish of water between them. Look at Tamriel Rebuilt in Morrowind - it's completely accurate, and isn't far at all.

Personally, I actually couln't care less if Morrowind wildlife isn't in TESV, I just want something original to TES, instead of Minotaurs, lions, and wolves. <_<

» Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:59 am

I would like to turn off all map points and be able to add my own from within the game, like noting things down on your map. So I dont end up with 100s of useless map points, or I can take note of things I've seen in the game.

IIRC, you could type notes on maps in Daggerfall. I'd love to see this ability in TES V. Things might get a little messy, though.

» Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:16 pm

Fast travel? What's the problem? If you don't like it don't use it

You can't not use it... Do you have any idea how pointless it is to walk from Anvil to Leyawiin? It's too critical to not use it (mostly), which is why it needs to be improved.

» Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:21 am

You can't not use it... Do you have any idea how pointless it is to walk from Anvil to Leyawiin? It's too critical to not use it (sometimes), which is why it needs to be improved.

I find the "Don't like it? Don't use it" argument to be humorous. That's like telling me that if I don't like paying taxes then I should't pay them. True, not paying taxes is an option, but one which has painful repercussions.

What I would rather have is a fair tax system that everyone can use.

» Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:54 pm

When you get no useful directions from a quest giver ("It's a ways North of here"), and most quests are placed half-way across the map from where you are, it's difficult NOT to use FT and the reviled Quest Compass. The choices of many quest locations were heavily reliant on them, and a royal pain to do without. It would be more sensible to be able to walk to the closest town, take public transport or a rented wagon to the town nearest the quest destination, and then take a short hike from there. It would have made still more sense to have most of those locations somewhere nearby, rather than having a guild in one city send you to do quests just outside another city across the map, with its own guild hall. Clicking on a map and mysteriously teleporting to the opposite end of Cyrodiil without cost and with no use of magika was a blatant "cheat" to many RP gamers. It COULD be optional in TES V and nobody would complain, but FT was NOT optional in OB, no matter what some individuals may think (or fail to think).

» Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:12 am

Then use it sometimes, and don't use it most of the time. It's not an "all or nothing" issue. I play my game Fallout 3 style (though no mods) where I always physically travel to an area before I'll let myself fast travel there. To say it's pointless to walk from point A to point B is like saying it's pointless to walk from Seyda Neen to Balmora. If you're too impatient or lazy to take 15-30 minutes walking to your destination, then the problem is you, not the travel system. Oblivion does reward exploration (notice how none of the Ayleid ruins are marked on the map?), just like Morrowind, and how much you use it ultimately depends on your style of play. And as for those who say horses are too slow, save up and invest in something other than Prior Maborel's paint horse. I ran just about everywhere and I was never as fast as Shadowmere or the unicorn.

On topic, I like boats. They're comfy and easy to ride in.

» Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:17 pm

When you get no useful directions from a quest giver ("It's a ways North of here"), and most quests are placed half-way across the map from where you are, it's difficult NOT to use FT and the reviled Quest Compass. The choices of many quest locations were heavily reliant on them, and a royal pain to do without.

Hah, you know what I find interesting, almost every quest in MW did this same thing, and you didn't have FT and the compass.

Every quest started w/ "It's in a Dwemer ruin up the road," or "It's in a Velothi outside the next town." Then, you had to walk around the wilderness for an hour just trying to find the damn thing because there was NO INDICATION WHAT SO EVER.

A good example is the first part of the main quest. No one tells you were to find Cosades, you have to get to Balmora, then find the SWCC, then search among the 8 houses in the general vicinity of his house, just to find him.

The point is, an open-world RPG often causes frustration when your trying to find a quest. It's simply the nature of the game. Oblivion was actually a step forward with the compass (even though id'e rather it be in the general vicinity of the quest than right on top).

Also, to the people who say its impossible to ignore FT, its not. I limit myself to FT only when iv'e walked to an area before, including cityies. When I get a quest in Leyawin, but the quest ends in Bruma; quess were i'm walking?

It's really not that hard to ignore. If you cant, then maybe you should consider giving up on open-world RPGs, as you probably don't have the patience or will-power to play one properly.

» Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:05 pm

I find the "Don't like it? Don't use it" argument to be humorous. That's like telling me that if I don't like paying taxes then I should't pay them. True, not paying taxes is an option, but one which has painful repercussions.

What I would rather have is a fair tax system that everyone can use.

Did you read my post right? That's exactly what I'm saying...

» Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:56 am

Did you read my post right? That's exactly what I'm saying...

Am I not entitled to agree with you :hehe:

» Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:47 am

IIRC, you could type notes on maps in Daggerfall. I'd love to see this ability in TES V. Things might get a little messy, though.

You remember incorrectly. No notes. But ofc that would be useful in TES5. On the matter of fast travel, just give me big enough map (10% of Daggerfall mby?) and let's see who keeps saying they never want to fast travel.
Edit: ooops. Of course you could write notes... but on CITY maps only. My bad. Clicking the buildings with view-cursor the house names were recorded on your map, too, so it wasn't very useful to write your own stuff there.

From my list of suggestions:

3.2 Fast travel

You can only fast travel along ROADS that are marked on your MAP. You can upgrade the 'worldmap' by buying different maps from cartographers, or by exploring yourself. The actual fast travelling is done by zooming up until you see the map/satellite sort of view, and then you can move along the roads, decide in which taverns to stay on the way, where to stop and where to go. Random encounters are possible with merchants caravans, bandits, or just common people. Also:

-When you reach the end of your explored/bought map, you just continue manually. That is back to 1st person.
-The map is 'colored' as you explore, like in TES3.
-If you need to reach a location in the middle of nowhere, you can only fast travel as far as the roads go.
-The world map is big enough to make week's travels possible, as in TES2.
-It's still possible to travel in 1st person, but the distances make it really time-consuming.
-There are believable amount of locations, farms, temples and taverns along the roads.
-Much less actual dungeons/forts/caves/ruins, but way bigger. As in TES2.
-Lot of cemetaries, but not all of them inhabitet by undead.
-You can buy services from boats and caravans.(Like Silt striders and boats in TES3)
-You can instantly teleport between two Mages Guilds, but that's extremely costy. (In TES2 and 3 teleportation was so cheap and easy it should have made ALL other ways of transportation extinct!)
-Quests have deadlines to make the teleportation more necessary, even if it's costy.
-You can get loans from banks or loansharks.
-Teleporters in guilds might need more time between their spellcasting, to give the illusion of demanding spells.
-Survival skill is used whenever you need to sleep in the wilderness. During winter you need to build fire. Shelter during rain etc.
-The stats of your horse or other mount (reindeer?) affect the speed and range you can fast travel. Heavily armoured warhorse is slower and tires easily. When walking, your own stats matter.

There was a topic for how the game should begin, some years ago, and I was thinking that you might escape from captors in a remote (and even randomly selected) place, finding a crude map showing 2-3 nearest cities, and that would seriously limit your fast travelling in the start. Would also get rid of the repetitive, soon boring, beginnings in the same location over and oer again.

» Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:55 pm

I posted this in the Suggestions thread but I figured I should post it here as well:

When I first played Oblivion on my Xbox 360, I used fast travel constantly, not thinking anything of it. I recently got Oblivion for the PC and disabled fast travel. Man, I'm amazed. This is the first time I ever felt like Cryodiil was big, and the first time I actually experienced just how big it was. Sure, I knew it was big, but this is the first time I experienced it. I was really started to get annoyed at just how much walking I had to do to get from place to place. But that annoyance is important! That annoyance means that Oblivion is actually a big game! It feels 100x bigger than it did on the Xbox 360 when I used fast travel.

Sadly, without a mod or extreme self control, that annoyance is the only way to experience just how big Oblivion is. I want to experience how big Skyrim is, but I don't want to be annoyed. Nobody should have to walk all across the map. Who wants to be annoyed, right?

Skyrim should not have fast travel. It should also not make Oblivion's mistake of not having alternate systems of transport. Bethesda, ALL you need to do is put transportation systems between major cities, and bring back teleportation spells like Mark & Recall and *Blank* Intervention. Especially Mark and Recall, because it will enable people to just teleport right back to their quest giver just like fast travel enables.

» Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:47 am

Edit: ooops. Of course you could write notes... but on CITY maps only. My bad. Clicking the buildings with view-cursor the house names were recorded on your map, too, so it wasn't very useful to write your own stuff there.

Thanks. I thought you could write notes, but like you said, only on city maps. While it wasn't totally useful, I was able to mark locations so I could find them more quickly in the future. I certainly would want all maps to be markable in TES V.

» Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:54 pm

A good example is the first part of the main quest. No one tells you were to find Cosades, you have to get to Balmora, then find the SWCC, then search among the 8 houses in the general vicinity of his house, just to find him.

This could pretty much be the most irritating complaint ever.

1. Go to Balmora and find Caius by looking around the south wall

2. Get instructions to Caius' house EXACTLY.

3. Find Caius.

From the CS:

"Old Caius rents a little bed-and-basket just up the hill on the north edge of town. Go out the front door -- NOT the upper door to the terrace -- then right up the stairs, then left at the top of the stairs and down to the end of the street."

If you know Balmora, that's pretty much exactly where to go. This is the instructions you get to find Caius.

So, if you can't figure out where Caius is, please faceplant into the nearest wall.

I can tell you, I found Caius within 1 minute of leaving South Wall.

I only ever got lost once during a quest when I shouldn't have, and I ENJOYED it. Being lost is a part of a massivly open world sandbox RPG. In Morrowind, there was actually a decent landscape, and you could enjoy the view, find quests, find hidden artifacts, and be in awe at the wildlife. THIS is the reason I can't ignore fast travel in Oblivion, you don't enjoy it. The map is also too accurate, if I somehow get lost in Oblivion, the map will show me exactly where the nearest town is, What the hell?

[/rant]

» Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:36 pm

I posted this in the Suggestions thread but I figured I should post it here as well:

I'd also like to add that quests in cities should be in a logical area. If I'm in the fighter's guild in Chorrol, why do I have to travel to Bravil to do the contract? There's a Bravil chapter right in Bravil! If the quest came from Chorrol, it should be near Chorrol from a Chorrol citizen or someone living near Chorrol.

While the beginning portions of the Mages Guild were tedious, they had the strength of making each of the quest locations logical.

» Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:13 am

-snip-
[/rant]

Not to mention you were given clear instructions from the NPC quest giver, who you cannot avoid. On top of that, you were even given a journal update, written notes, locations, dates, times, money, advice to take the cheap taxi directly to the city, and the everything except a quest marker. Directions in MW, for the most part, were accurate. More often than not, NPCs would tell you to go that way, but if you see this, you have gone too far, and give you landmarks to look out for. The only time I really got lost with given directions were 1 or 2 Telvanni quests and where the special ring is.

» Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:43 am

This could pretty much be the most irritating complaint ever.

1. Go to Balmora and find Caius by looking around the south wall

2. Get instructions to Caius' house EXACTLY.

3. Find Caius.

From the CS:

"Old Caius rents a little bed-and-basket just up the hill on the north edge of town. Go out the front door -- NOT the upper door to the terrace -- then right up the stairs, then left at the top of the stairs and down to the end of the street."

If you know Balmora, that's pretty much exactly where to go. This is the instructions you get to find Caius.

So, if you can't figure out where Caius is, please faceplant into the nearest wall.

I can tell you, I found Caius within 1 minute of leaving South Wall.

I only ever got lost once during a quest when I shouldn't have, and I ENJOYED it. Being lost is a part of a massivly open world sandbox RPG. In Morrowind, there was actually a decent landscape, and you could enjoy the view, find quests, find hidden artifacts, and be in awe at the wildlife. THIS is the reason I can't ignore fast travel in Oblivion, you don't enjoy it. The map is also too accurate, if I somehow get lost in Oblivion, the map will show me exactly where the nearest town is, What the hell?

[/rant]

I disagree here, there's a difference between exploring and being lost. I love to explore, but I hate getting lost, exploring is good, while getting lost is wasting time. If I'm lost, then I don't care about anything I meet on the way, random quests, loot, whatever, it means nothing, because that isn't what I'm looking for, because I'm supposed to be somewhere when I'm not. What you are suggesting is that the only reason you get into the wild is because you're forced to, through getting lost.

» Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:07 am

I disagree here, there's a difference between exploring and being lost. I love to explore, but I hate getting lost, exploring is good, while getting lost is wasting time. If I'm lost, then I don't care about anything I meet on the way, random quests, loot, whatever, it means nothing, because that isn't what I'm looking for, because I'm supposed to be somewhere when I'm not. What you are suggesting is that the only reason you get into the wild is because you're forced to, through getting lost.

But you have a decent scenery to look at. In Oblivion, if you where ever lost (lol), all you had to look at where crappy real life trees, and no well designed landscape. In Morrowind, there where the mushrooms of the Ascadian Isles, the Guars of the Grazelands, the Mountainous landscape, and even the weather, not to mention a whole lot of others. I enjoyed being lost, because it made the game a challenge. I mean, obviously, if it'd happen multiple times, it would be irritating, but I was only lost once, and I enjoyed it.

It's supposed to be a struggle to get to certain parts of the map. In Oblivion it was all one flat surface with a few lumps around the edges that people called mountains.

What I missed from Morrowind, was actually how higher leveled enemies would be around Red Mountain, and lower leveled ones would be around the Bitter Cost, for the most part. It made the game so muh more enjoyable that I couldn't get to certain places until I was strong enough.

» Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:21 am

It's supposed to be a struggle to get to certain parts of the map. In Oblivion it was all one flat surface with a few lumps around the edges that people called mountains.

What I missed from Morrowind, was actually how higher leveled enemies would be around Red Mountain, and lower leveled ones would be around the Bitter Cost, for the most part. It made the game so muh more enjoyable that I couldn't get to certain places until I was strong enough.

I missed both of those.

To be fair to Cyrodiil though, its landscape was relatively easy to traverse because it was designed as a bowl with a major cosmopolitan settlement at its heart. All roads led to the center. With Red Mountain in Morrowind, all roads skirted around the center, and the idea of cutting through was geographically laughable, never mind the creatures.

@Daydark
In regard to the dissonance between consciously desiring to explore and not desiring to get lost...
Would you object if a section of the forum declared certain instances of combat an undesired hassle that they would like to skip through? If we examine it, that complaint holds the same basic structure as exploration versus being lost.

"When I desire to fight something, it's OK, but when something surprises me and I don't really want to fight it, I'd just like to have an autopilot functionality that determines the outcome of that fight for me. Or some other mechanic that allows me to stop all fights I don't feel like engaging in."

Quite comparable to "When I desire to explore, it's OK, but when I'm lost (i.e. I don't want to explore), I'd just like to have an autopilot functionality that automatically points me in the right direction. Or some other mechanic that allows me to never get lost again."

Personally, I would take objection to both. If you don't take objection to the latter, would you be OK with Bethesda adding the conditions of the former?

» Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:24 am

To be fair to Cyrodiil though, its landscape was relatively easy to traverse because it was designed as a bowl with a major cosmopolitan settlement at its heart. All roads led to the center. With Red Mountain in Morrowind, all roads skirted around the center, and the idea of cutting through was geographically laughable, never mind the creatures.

It was also supposed to be a jungle :shrug:

» Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:53 am

It was also supposed to be a jungle :shrug:

Well yeah, but I think that, unlike the jungle, the general shape of the province was pretty true to how things should have been.

That doesn't mean that there weren't things they could have done to make certain areas difficult to traverse. But as a general rule, I'm OK with Cyrodiil being easier to get around than Vvardenfell because I would expect a long-held provincial seat of cosmopolitan and political dominance to be easier to get across.

We can always look forward to the western crags and heights of Skyrim to be our new Red Mountain region, though. ^_^

» Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:16 am

But you have a decent scenery to look at. In Oblivion, if you where ever lost (lol), all you had to look at where crappy real life trees, and no well designed landscape. In Morrowind, there where the mushrooms of the Ascadian Isles, the Guars of the Grazelands, the Mountainous landscape, and even the weather, not to mention a whole lot of others.

Decent scenario is a subjective opinion, Morrowinds scenery is fine, but I don't think Oblivions isn't.

I enjoyed being lost, because it made the game a challenge. I mean, obviously, if it'd happen multiple times, it would be irritating, but I was only lost once, and I enjoyed it.

It's supposed to be a struggle to get to certain parts of the map. In Oblivion it was all one flat surface with a few lumps around the edges that people called mountains.

I don't agree with you're assessment of the environment of Oblivion, it would be like me saying Morrowind is different shades of brown with fog and sand. It supposed to be a struggle to go to certain part of the map, but not to find it, and if it has to be hard to find, then I want it to be better reasons then inadequate descriptions or because the developer thought you wouldn't think of a smarter way to figure it out, and hasn't given the option.

What I missed from Morrowind, was actually how higher leveled enemies would be around Red Mountain, and lower leveled ones would be around the Bitter Cost, for the most part. It made the game so muh more enjoyable that I couldn't get to certain places until I was strong enough.

I'm fine with that, but that suggest that you already know where to go, I'm simply objecting to it being more difficult than it should be, in terms of actually finding the place.

» Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:23 am

I'm sorry, I think we were playing different games. I love Oblivion's scenery. There were quite a few times when I would stop in my adventuring and just admire the view. One instance that stands out to me is when I was on the road to Bruma, and I could see the Imperial City, and really most of the province, through the trees and flowers. It was absolutely breathtaking. That's something that, barring MGE, Morrowind can't ever offer. Also, I chuckled at the notion of "crappy real life trees."

Say what you want about Oblivion's gameplay or story (though I may disagree with you there as well), but the world itself is very well put together.

» Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:16 pm

That's something that, barring MGE, Morrowind can't ever offer. Also, I chuckled at the notion of "crappy real life trees."

The only reason you say that is because in Morrowind, you could only see so far. If Morrowind had nothing but the same view distance as Oblivion, it would look better. It's one of those many limitations we have due to console users. Morrowind had by far a better scenery.

Anyways, back on topic...

Fast Travel Oblivion-styled shouldn't be included, it will be easily modded in, and as I've said before, there isn't anything to loose from modding in fast travel, whereas there is something to loose from having to mod it out.

Fast travel like this only really works in a huge world, like Daggerfall, but, if we have a Daggerfall sized game, there would be so many limitations... Daggerfall wasn't a console game, so it could look decent while offering a huge map, whereas, due to console limits, if a huge map is used in TESV, it will be lacking in other key areas. I'm not suggesting not bringing TESV out for consoles, ofc, that would be stupid for Bethesda, it's just the thruth.

» Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:29 pm

Actually, for clarification RellacFTW, Morrowind was a PC game, then was ported to the consoles some time later. Unless I'm just going crazy. Praise Nurgle and his gifts he bestowed to me!

» Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:28 pm

I would suggest that they limit the amount of markers on you map. (Like with fallout 3 where all you got was your vault and the rest you had to find and explore. No hints or anything.) Also you should only be able to fast travel to place you have fully explored (Found all the rooms ect.) Also you should be allowed veichles you can control to move around in. And no, not like the stupid stilt rider where you just handed the man some cash and you magically appeared in a new place. Such things like caravans and boats should be player controlled. Thus allowing them to travel around the map more quickly.

These caravans and boats would be just like the horse in oblivion, except they would be much faster and would be able to come with attachments likes faster wheels, more animal pulling power ect.