I don't fully find them to be the same, I can't recall any instance where lost is fun, only depressing. If I looked for something and I traveled completely off base, I feel like I wasted a lot of time, I usually quit the game for the day if its sever, I just can't make myself go back knowing that I could just be wasting more time. Now you could say the same for fighting, but fighting can be fun, I don't see getting lost as something fun, if it's fun, it means you've moved your goal with you're trip, and are no longer lost, but are exploring. You can also work on fighting, or if beth would allow it, you could talk your way through it all with sufficient skill. I can't improve on getting lost, when you're lost, it means you've already failed, trial and error, there's nothing you can do other than reread what you know and hope it will show up soon.



As I feel it, when I'm lost, it's not that I don't want to explore, I just don't do it when I'm lost. It's like if I'm searching a page for a specific word, I don't actually read what it says, I'm just filtering through it without considering anything other than what could I'm looking for.

I should make note that, I don't mean that one should always have something which that automatically points to what you want. For example, Finding Balmora from seyda neen via. the road signs is alright, I'm not lost until there's something which is completely up to luck, I hate having to go on luck, a road that splits into two and no road signs, or otherwise guidance, 50/50 chance of getting lost.



I'm not against some quests being dependent on you finding something, where it's an active part of the quest. I think I read a suggestion for a system that would show you on the map, only what you've been told, like general area if that is all you've been told, specific instructions would be shown specifically on the map.

Subjectivity regarding which we find fun and acceptable and which which we don't isn't a factor when the two arguments have syntactically the same structure:

When I want to experience [X], it's OK, but when I don't want to experience [X], I would like mechanic [Y] or [Z] to mitigate or completely do away with [X]. On the surface, that sounds great, and most people would probably endorse it right away. After all, games are for fun. Why would we want to experience something we don't find fun? Its premise is rather simple; as gamers, 100% of what we want to experience should be what we experience, and whatever we don't want to experience should not be foisted upon us.

But the argument of desired experience is a lie. As gamers wrapped up in the immediacy of a dynamic world, we generally don't know what we do or don't want at that precise moment. There are things and circumstances we encounter in the game world that annoy us, things we would rather not deal with. The scope of things these might be is huge:

The obvious, getting lost.
Encountering dozens of hostile creatures on the way to a destination.
Encountering a particularly difficult and undesirable hostile creature.
Getting kicked out of a faction and having to do boring menial quests to get reinstated.
Wanting to advance in a faction but not meeting the requirements.
Returning to a quest-giver for a reward to a quest, only to find that it's not over yet.
Needing a specific piece of equipment but not having the money.
Having to rely on skills that the player character is not well trained in.
Having a main weapon break in deadly combat, forcing the use of an unskilled weapon.
Eagerly pursuing a quest's storyline, only to have a series of missions that puts it on hold.
Etc, etc, etc.

As an example, I hated trolls in Oblivion. Hated them with a passion. My characters were never designed for easily taking them out. When I would see or hear a troll running toward me, my heart would sink. But would I feel relieved if I were given the option to remove having to deal with trolls from my player experience? No. Annoying as I find trolls, they are a part of the world, and while I may not find any worth in them in the immediacy of the moment, their presence contributes something to Cyrodiil as a whole. This meta-contribution is not experienced in the immediacy; it's nothing that you would notice on a case-by-case basis.

But if the offending thing were removed, people would notice and it would affect the underlying feel the game presented. Just as people would notice the underlying change in feel if weapons never broke in combat. Just as people would notice the underlying change in feel if they could magically port away whenever they encountered a creature they didn't want to deal with. Just as people would notice the underlying change in feel if they could skip past segments of quest-lines they found uninteresting or undesirable.

In other words, the annoyance is a small loss of fun that subtly leads to a greater and more powerful sense of satisfaction.

Getting lost tends to svck. It really does. But that doesn't mean I want to do away with it.

Honestly, I don't feel that fast travel is a horrible idea. I think it was the fact that the entire world was so close at the very beginning of Oblivion (since you could fast travel to every location already, without so much as even having to walk to it) that made it seem so small. There was also little reason to venture off if you opted for the beaten path, since most of the landscapes were very similar. I think that both sides can have what they want if both the Morrowind option and the fast travel option were available, however you could ONLY fast travel to a location if you had visited that location previously, rather than being able to teleport yourself to an unknown place without the minimal effort of a walk. The Morrowind option (with the silt striders, boats, etc.) allows the players who would rather take the more immersive route with the natural transportation of the game world. Thus you're not quite as tempted to just slam the fast travel button in repressed anger (both at yourself and the game that made you do it) and can opt instead to take the (hopefully) scenic route through the game. Maybe there can be people who drive the silt striders who carry valuable information about artifact locations and legends of old (let's face it, in the medieval ages, the travelling merchants were generally the most informed about happenings around the world and possessed knowledge of many of the myths of antiquity). So fast travel doesn't have to take away from the will to use the in-game travel mechanic, but those who would prefer to take the easy way out can painlessly do so.

Posted this in the suggestion but.... I would like to get around solely by http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/5437/mammothq.jpg

ThatOneGuy: They aren't the same, just because they fit into the same grammatical structure. When you encounter a creature that's difficult to fight, it means that the game is challenging you-- it becomes a goal to strive for, something that forces you to play differently or just play more in order to overcome it. That's not true of getting lost. I'll give an example. In Morrowind, I scoured Arkngthand from top to bottom looking for that damn puzzle box. It wasn't fun, especially when I ran out of torches and ended up having to cheat (turning the gamma up to max so I could see what the [censored] I was doing). If there had been some sort of guide, even a dialogue-based one that said "Hey, this bandit here keeps the box with him in this room. Go get 'em, tiger." But I quickly lost interest, and ended up not playing Morrowind again for several years because that one quest completely turned me off. By contrast, I'm not sure how many people here played Final Fantasy X back in the day, but for those who did, I spent literally months trying to kill Evrae. It was (and probably still is) one of the most difficult boss monsters I have encountered in any RPG, Japanese, Western, Korean, or otherwise. But I never gave up playing, because I saw it as a challenge to be overcome. And when I eventually beat it, it was incredibly satisfying. When I found the Dwemer Puzzle box, I was just annoyed and frustrated. That's not a good gameplay experience.

I know of only one person (in real life) who ever got frustrated with Morrowind. It wasn't because he got lost, but because he sold a certain skull early in the game and when he later realized he needed it, he had to literally go merchant by merchant trying to find who he sold it to.

My brother got lost looking for Cosades, but that is related to the fact he never reads directions.

I still maintain that a hybrid between a travel network and a "pay as you go" fast travel system (see the #2 post in this thread) would be ideal, that way all people are covered and no one is forced to do anything.

Money is Irrelevant in TES. Adding a cost to use fast travel wouldn't stop anything. I seriously don't see why they don't just let us mod average travel out. There is not loss from Modding it out.

It is only irrelevant due to a lack of either a live economy or "sinks" to keep it appearing live.
If they actually implement some real economic structure to TES V and add in some sinks, a pay as you go service would work beautifully for those who want to fast travel quickly as well as those who want to manually control their fast travel (i.e. MW style).

Read the last post on page 4. AKA, mine.

You're still superimposing your subjective opinions over it all. Just because you don't consider getting lost a challenge (or more specifically, a constructive challenge), that doesn't mean that it isn't or can't be. A challenge is any intentional or designed-with-possible-occurrence-in-mind obstacle that is imposed between the player and their goal. Whether or not it is "fun" is subjective and therefore meaningless to the overall argument. I could just as easily claim that getting lost gives me a goal to strive for in the form of a desired location, forces me to play differently by asking directions / trying new paths / using paid transport to approach the problem from a different angle. Or I could indeed just play more to overcome it, by continually searching while taking my surroundings and what I encounter in stride. It can be, to me, just as challenging and fulfilling in the end as combat might be to you.

I could also just as easily claim that combat with a difficult and fatal creature is just frustrating, lowers my desire to play, causes me to want to cheat, makes me wish for other options or avenues to circumvent said combat, and when I finally manage to defeat the creature, I could easily be annoyed and frustrated at the egregious effort it required. How interestingly similar it is to your opinions on being lost, no? (Just to note, I don't actually hold this last position; it's being taken up for the sake of argument). What's more, I could superimpose anything else off my list (or virtually any other mechanic in the game) over combat and probably have people that will agree with it.

Further, whether or not a specific instance of challenge is badly designed says nothing about the challenge type as a whole. The Dwemer Puzzle Box is a notorious example of "getting lost gone bad." There is little domain for extraneous exploration while being lost (Arkngthand's not that big), and it's hidden in what is perhaps a place so obviously in your face from the start that you might never think to look there. And there is little variation in play style one can undertake to discover it. That's not a good combination, and you most certainly have a valid critique against this one instance. But one valid critique against an instance doesn't mean a valid critique against the whole pail.

It seems to me (based on reading your post there) that your gripe is more with some poor writing choices on the part of the developers (i.e. not giving you better directions) rather than with the fast travel issue.

I'm all for getting good directions, but why can't we get both good directions and a good travel system?

Sounds like you're describing Cliffracer encounters. At least there are mods to remove those, for those who hate them. Removing FT doesn't fix the void left in its absence.

I understand your point and it is me being subjective, but at least let me make my case why I consider it a hassle greater than the others. After thinking about it, I've come to the conclusion that the reason I find being lost the biggest let down of the above mentioned obstacles, is that most of the above can be improved upon or otherwise lessened, with exception of getting lost. when your lost, well then your lost, reading the descriptions wont help you, because I classify lost, as when your anolysis of the descriptions tells you that you're supposed to be where you goal is, but you can't find the goal anyways. I also believe that most of the other obstacles aren't as time consuming as getting lost, I base this on that the problem of lost isn't as quick to give a second try as for example, the problem of a difficult monster. If you lose to a difficult monster, you can quickly reload and retry with new knowledge, lost wont be like that, it wont get better, because you don't know when your improving.

Fighting a monster still gives a feeling of improvement, you have a chance at defeating it, the fact that you know when your improving means that it is alright if the fight drags out, because you can improve upon yourself, you know your problem and understand what you have to do. Being lost is not knowing where to go, and so you wont know when your making progress and when you just wasting time, and so it all becomes aimless.



I hate the trolls as well, right when they show up they are usually a pain, especially if you're an archer type, I feel that you can justifiably express a concern though, if you feel that the challenge is not because of the troll but because of nerfed weapon damage.

But then again in my own subjective (but hopefully rational) conclusion, I don't see it as the same problem as being lost, because even with the troll issue, I can see the problem and know how to address it, I can make progress, I can't when I'm lost, one direction might be as good as another.



I see where you're coming from, maybe it would be too extreme to remove it all together, it would probably become a little dull, I think my problem probably stems from the fact that I want descriptions to be more precise or I want the option to maybe talk more to people about the location I'm supposed to find. Maybe interact with them, show them my map perhaps, so they can help me to better help them.

How do you feel about fallout 3's system where things in the near vicinity is marked, but all with the same neutral dot, so you can't really tell what's what, only that it's there?

THIS!!!!!!!

ugh i don't know what it is with you hardcoe TES fans. I know for a fact the average gamer who doesn't play TES as often would hate fast travel being taken away. I do not see Bethesda removing it. Though they may add faster modes of transportation. Taking time to travel when you don't want to travel is a no. I got a life people i don't got time to spend 3 hours traveling just to deliver a single quest item.


Really the real solution to the elder scrolls fast travel is to model it after Fallouts. Fallouts fast travel system was brilliant. Because everything was so spaced out and big, you would to do a hell of alot of exploring just to find out what anything is. Aswell a no towns or cities being give to you at the beginning of the game, finding a new city felt like unwrapping a birthday present. Aswell as almost no info or hint being given as to what or where anything was. Exploring became the main part of the game.

Neither do I. Good thing I pay a fee to use the Silt Strider/Mages Guild/Boats to get to Y from X



Morrowind gave practically the same amount of exploration, just without the ability to transport back/to a place from the wilderness.

But I will concede I did do roughly the same amount of exploration, mainly because there were a lot more interesting sites, even if a lot were dungeons, but they each had a story. It did combine OB's level of travel, with the MW exploration, random sites, encounters, and dungeon diving fun. Still felt like I cheated a bit in FO3 when I did use FT, but it was pretty much only used when I didn't want to walk halfway through the world.

If Bethesda makes the mistake of putting fast travel back in with no alternative systems of transport, the very first thing I will do is make a mod to fix it. Fast travel is a detriment to the game, allowing people to teleport past all of the things Bethesda worked so hard to put in their game, for free no less. What's the point of having an open world game if you just enable players to teleport all over the map? Morrowind style travel was almost perfect, and they threw it away because people couldn't stand the the thought of actually playing a game, and instead wanted to just teleport all over the place. God forbid they had to walk for an extra 5 minutes. And Bethesda even had teleportation in Morrowind, yet that still wasn't good enough for some reason.

Bethesda makes amazing games but fast travel was one of the biggest mistakes they made post-Morrowind.

I wonder if deep down for some folks it's some kind of spite or loathing fueled by that they had to wander that glorified turd-in-a-toilet-bowl with a map that was only good for wiping your back end if your destination wasn't a gigantic ruin or actual populated settlement. Because THEY put up with it, they want OTHERS to have to put up with it, and hell have no mercy if the devs suddenly realize that aimless wandering isn't a good thing. Heck, I bet you could put a superiority complex somewhere in there as well.

If the idea of being able to return back to a location that you've already been to without having to waste additional time, energy and resources repeating things that you already did in order to accomplish the finding of said location without so much as a penalty of fifty bucks out of a purse of thousands and thousands is just an absolute travesty, well, I'm sorry for you, but some folks prefer to actually be accomplishing things instead of re-re-re-travelling some gods-damned wasteland of endless excrement brown.

Sorry to ruin your little theory, but I only played Morrowind after I played Fallout 3 and Oblivion. But when I played Morrowind, I realized how much larger it felt than Oblivion because, yes, I didn't get to teleport anywhere I wanted with absolutely no cost. I get it, the people who like fast travel don't give a crap that they aren't actually experiencing the game, they just want to get things done. Screw the game world around them, no, they just want to complete their quests and get their reward. I play Bethesda's open-world games because I like exploring, not collecting phat loot and finishing the game as quickly as possible. If I wanted to teleport everywhere and ignore the world around me, I'd play linear RPGs like Dragon Age. If that makes me a "hardcoe" player, so be it, because then hardcoe must mean a player who actually wants to get everything out of the game they can.

Fast travel is definatley not the biggest mistake. There are worst things that have happened than fast travel. I would at least hope it wouldn't be this big of a deal.

Look if you want to explore then explore. You don't have to use the fast travel system, its not a drug, you can put it down. Hell even I have made accounts where I just walk around the Province AND NEVER FAST TRAVEL!!!!!!!If I can handle not using fast travel, why not you. I haven't played Morrowind as much yet I can still just drop fast travel and explore just as easy as anything else. You don't need stilt riders and you don't need boats. It was a stupid system anyways, its a hell of lot more fun just to fast travel out of a long and hard dungeon than waste your time walking back. The reason they have you fast travel is so that when you've finally completed a quest you don't have to take a meaningless and pointless stroll back, you've already proven you can it make there. Why prove it a second time. Its the same reason they don't sit there with the camera in movies and watch the main character make a slow walk back to his house. We don't need to see it, we've been there before. And for those of you say "But they never explain what happens along the way. Like being attacked by a monster." Well there are alot of uncannon things bethesda gives no explanation to lets see:

Why is there no death penalty for murder?

How come Valen Dreth and several other characters are imprisoned for years (Valen 11) while when you randomly kill people on the street only get like a month?

How do guards find what items you've stolen?

How come in Morrowind several NPCs never enter their homes?

How come in Morrowind houses and stores are open 24/7?

How come attacking NPCs don't follow you through doors?

How come the Adoring Fan doesn't offically die?

How come when you slice an NPC they don't split in half?

How come ceartin locks can't be picked when they're the same as the others?

Why can't pass the invisble walls?

Why can't I leave Mournhold?

Why can't I fly out of Mournhold?

How come in Morrowind arrows and swords miss an NPC at point blank range?

How come the Count of Skingrad doesn't find it strange that I just broke into his quaters?

How come NPCs vanish instead of opening the door when they enter a building?

Why do all the NPCs say the exact same rumors?

How come no one ever buys anything from the shops yet they still magically gain money?

Why are NPCs stiff?

How come there's no Yellow red room in the arena?

If theres a Yellow red room how come the yellow team champ is in the blue?

How come in Cheydinhal a 5 septim fine is considered outrageous?

How come NPCs in Morrowind don't like it when I hand them a hundred septims?

Why are there clay plates and clay forks and knives if they sell for zero septims?

Why is there so many BUGS AND GLITCHES?


I could go all day with this. Hopefully you guys we'll finally realize that fast travel is optional and that anyone can put it down and just walk across Cyrodil. Though sadly I feel i'm not the first to say this. I pray soon you will come to understand.



Edit: lol sorry just noticed i had a few grammar errors. I corrected them though.

There was a little spell called Divine Intervention for that, as well as Mark and Recall. Fast Travel was actually in Morrowind, in the form of the teleportation spells. And if you didn't want to use them, there were other systems of fast travel. It was perfect.

In Oblivion, if you didn't want to use fast travel, you had to walk everywhere, and I don't think anybody likes that. At least in Morrowind, when you didn't want to fast travel (use the teleportation spells), you had other options. Oblivion gave you two choices, fast travel or walk everywhere, whereas Morrowind said teleport, walk or use alternate travel systems.



I'm sorry, but the "It's optional" argument is completely idiotic. It is not optional. Because if you don't use it, you're forced to walk everywhere, and Cyrodiil is a big, big place. Nobody wants to walk all over the place unless they are roleplaying a character specifically for it. It's as optional as using a shopping cart at the grocery store, if you don't use it, you're going to have to carry all of your bags by hand, which nobody wants to do. In Morrowind, you could get a friend to drive your car up to the entrance so that you don't have to walk that far, but in Oblivion, you have to walk all the way down the parking lot to your car.

okay wait a minute. You just went on a complete rant about people who complain about walking. And now your complaining about walking. You say you want alternatives, but you consider fast travel a horrid use yet no fast travel at all (And before you go off im talking no stilt riders, horses or boats) is also horrid. You just want bethesda to make things perfect for you or else your game svcks?

Dude you need to really lower your standards. Riding a horse is not that hard, it took me about 30 seconds to get from anvil to Kvatch. It seems your the one who can't stand walking for about 5 minutes really. But you also seemed worried about it being to fast. If you wanna enjoy it its not that hard. One of my funnest experinces in oblivion was running through and clearing out old ruins. I have never found Cyrodil too big to explore from city to city. The reason they aren't in there is because they're not needed, Cyrodil is smaller than Morrowind thus it takes less time to get from place to place. There are just those times when you feel like having some fun and don't feel like walking from the imperial city to anvil. I can name tons of times when i exited a cave near skyrim or bravil or whatever and I just walked. Because its not that far. And I can name times when i was in the middle of nowhere and i didn't wanna spend my time climbing through the mountains just to get back to town.

In conclusion your wrong. There is nothing wrong with walking, if you can't handle walking over to a city svcks for you. But I don't need a giant flying bug or a teleportation spell to get me where I need to go. Ill take shadowmere thank you.





.... no comment. Other than your theory is wrong because in oblivion if you feel to tired to walk down to your car you can just have it appear right in front of you. In morrowind you have to go find your friend and get them to get the car for you. You have options wherever you go.... and you don't enjoy that in oblivion.

Completely agree with that. If OB had another version of travel, say, carriages or horse drawn buggies, etc, we wouldn't have to use fast travel. But walking for 3 hours in real life time to get from one city from another? That's called "forced" to use fast travel.
If we had an alternative, we'd use it. And no, it's not the same. Traveling from city to city, for a fee, is not the same thing as fast travel.

Again. I have walked across Cyrodil, it does not take 3 hours.

And what you still have yet to answer how fast travel is considered CHEATING!!!!!


Edit: Before we go in circles here. I'm here to say im disagreeing with you because your making it such a big deal. Not because I wouldn't welcome new alternatives. You guys are always attacking oblivion this is just me biting back.

I'm actually worried about how bad your taking fast traveling. You don't want to walk and you don't want to cheat. You guys are just to uptight really.

There's a big difference between walking CONSTANTLY and walking OCCASIONALLY. In Morrowind, you had travel systems, so you did not walk ALL the time. I do not like walking constantly, everywhere and anywhere. Sometimes I don't want to walk, which is why I would use a Silt Strider. But in Oblivion, without fast travel, I have to walk EVERYWHERE. I don't understand how this is so hard for you to comprehend.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. If Bethesda makes the same mistake again, I'll just make a mod to fix it. I feel bad for the console gamers who actually don't want everything handed to them on a silver platter, but unfortunately the people who do far outweigh the people who don't.