This has been bugging me ever since my first play through of the Mages Guild quest-line. From what I have gathered through npc conversations, Necromancy used to be as respected throughout the Mages Guild as any of the other main magic types. Destruction, Illusion ect. Traven bans necromancy from the guild but it's still technically legal. You never meet any necromancers in the city, except for Hassildor's aide, and the only reason I can see for this is that being banned from the guild has unleashed all ignorant local superstition like a wave, added on top of that the pressure from the local guild halls must of made life for these perfectly normal citizens unbearable, sending them into an exodus from polite society into caves to study their craft. I think that kind of banishment is enough to drive anyone insane. Now I'm sure that they started out making regular pleas at the University, peaceful protests, letters of petition. And when all that failed, they did what any ignored minority would do when sufficiently oppressed, they turned to extremism, latching themselves onto a fringe organization led by the Necromancer equivalent of Osama Bin Laden. This group of necromancers is essentially The Black Panther organization, except instead of racial prejudice, it's some kind of religious/vocational apartheid.
Traven then forces you to slaughter dozens of civilians to get at Mannimarco, instead of appealing to the more sensible of them and offering them concessions, he has you butcher these ordinarily rational people who have been driven to extremism by horrific circumstances.
And thus I rest my case that Traven is a jerk who deserved to have his soul svcked into a rock.

I can't say I fully agree with you but I do like your incredibly detailed line of thinking. To me, necromancers deserve to be extinguished. They all seem to hate my characters, even if my character happens to be evil. So they deserve their fates.

I don't see Traven as a jerk, but I do see him as sort of a lazy guy. Yet another NPC that doesn't really do anything but stand around, dispense a few quests, and then finally....:violin:

i believe it was explained somewhere, can't remember where, that necromancy was already feared and reviled by normal people and it was banned because the mages guild was supposed to be different from the previous mages association, meaning they listened to the people instead of being elitist. or something like that. I'm pretty sure its in one of the books somewhere. and it had always been outlawed but some of the guild heads ignored the ban, some were necromancers, while some actually upheld the ban, just depended on who was in charge.

Go find Lost Boy Cavern, and see what you learn there. See how that fits into your theory.

In Lost Boy Cavern, the Lich's friend was also a necromancer. Even as a necromancer he knew where the line was and tried to stop others from crossing it. It seems logical that before the banning of necromancy, turning into a lich was forbidden, just like daedric magic.
After society banished them, wouldn't the allure of the darker side of their craft become all the more enticing? The Lost Boy Cavern note only proves that not all necromancers are evil, and that even one trying to promote the goodness in his practice was turned away by Traven.
If conjurers were banished from the guild and polite society, you can bet they would be lining up to join the ranks of the Mythic Dawn.

I agree, for the most part. Traven was an awful Arch-Mage and he did more to hurt than guild than help it. I think he made up for it in the end though, didn't he?

But yeah, I think it was clear if you talk to everyone in the Mages Guild about the guild, a lot of them seem to be discontent with Traven's decision to ban Necromancy. It's not an inherently cruel or diabolical practice, there's a lot to learn about the human condition through Necromancy, and Necromancers seek eternal life and the resurrection of the dead. Only Morrowind has an outright ban on Necromancy. It's legal everywhere else, though Cyrodiil had the misfortune of Traven.

We're getting awfully spoilerish for the General Discussion area.

Necromancers have always been the bad guys in Elder Scrolls games. You can tell, because they wear the black hats. :wink_smile:

Whoops, you're right! I added spoiler tags. :thumbsup:


It's so easy. Necromancers practically go hand-in-hand with undead, and undead are classic enemies. Still, it would be nice to see examples of the benevolent side of Necromancy. It's not all raising the dead. Lots of fantasy settings even consider healing spells to be Necromancy. I think it would be quite interesting to find Restoration to just be part of the school of Necromancy. After all, it all deals with life and death.

I can see merit in an argument saying necromancy is a part of restoration. seems to me the ultimate restoration would be bringing the dead back to life. Necromancy and Restoration seem to be the two sides of the same coin. It's like doctors, they learn what kills you so they can heal it.

edit: still undead and dudes in black are the stereotypical baddies

From what we're hearing about Skyrim, the Mages Guild goes under. Perhaps the whole affair in this game was the beginning of the end for the guild.