Trees have roots : V - Skyrim

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:37 pm

thanks OP... you have officially ruined Skyrim for me.

story and gameplay mean nothing if they dont get the tree botany right.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:14 pm

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:00 pm

See that tree, just to the left of the waterfall? It doesn't have nearly enough soil to reach that size. Its taproot should be several feet long, but it doesn't seem to have one. It's also missing the horizontal width of soil necessary for its spreaders. I know it shouldn't come as a surprise that trees need soil to grow. Surely some check could be added to the tree placement algorithm that would make sure they actually do have the appropriate depth of soil for their size? It really breaks immersion to have trees crammed in random places where they couldn't possibly survive.

Oh. My. God. :facepalm:

The endtimes are nigh, a videogame doesn't have 100% accurate plant botany per Earth flora!

/wrists

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:12 am

Someone has to ask them about this in the next "ask the devs" bit

See what they say.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:51 am

Here I enter this thread believing it's about perk trees, but to my surprise I find it's really about unrealistic tree roots.
...
Away, foul botanist! Back into the shadow!

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:35 am

Yikes....awesome people pay attention to the tiny things, but yikes.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:43 am

Hello!

I noticed a problem in a screenshot I saw.

http://betacache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2011/02/skyrim6.jpg

See that tree, just to the left of the waterfall? It doesn't have nearly enough soil to reach that size. Its taproot should be several feet long, but it doesn't seem to have one. It's also missing the horizontal width of soil necessary for its spreaders. I know it shouldn't come as a surprise that trees need soil to grow. Surely some check could be added to the tree placement algorithm that would make sure they actually do have the appropriate depth of soil for their size? It really breaks immersion to have trees crammed in random places where they couldn't possibly survive.

Thanks for the consideration!

Go out in the real world and explore,trees can grown in walls ,allsorts of places.....what you complain about makes no sense to me.
Each to their own i guess.
Infact look it up on the net,or on youtube...i'll bet you'll find something like that or worse.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:33 am

I wish people would stop picking at these old screens. It's been over a year since this version of the game. It has already been stated that the waterfall scene was an early alpha stage screen, so it's going to have some issues. By the time the game will be finished, it will have been 2 years since that so any inconsistencies will have been fixed. People need to realize that game design is an art. Like all art, it starts out as a rough draft and then later in development it gets the finer, finishing touches to really make it shine.

This. 1000 times.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:44 am

I wish people would stop picking at these old screens. It's been over a year since this version of the game. It has already been stated that the waterfall scene was an early alpha stage screen, so it's going to have some issues. By the time the game will be finished, it will have been 2 years since that so any inconsistencies will have been fixed. People need to realize that game design is an art. Like all art, it starts out as a rough draft and then later in development it gets the finer, finishing touches to really make it shine.

Aye lad.....i agree :thumbsup:

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:35 am

I wish people would stop picking at these old screens. It's been over a year since this version of the game. It has already been stated that the waterfall scene was an early alpha stage screen, so it's going to have some issues. By the time the game will be finished, it will have been 2 years since that so any inconsistencies will have been fixed. People need to realize that game design is an art. Like all art, it starts out as a rough draft and then later in development it gets the finer, finishing touches to really make it shine.

I'm curious, where or who said these screens are old? And how old exactly?
Do we have a dev confirmation-link or something?

I must have missed this

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:45 am

Cruxador: You keep saying that this would be easy to fix (you've said this, or some form of it, four times in this thread). I was wondering if you could elaborate on that. Is it possible that it might not be as easy to fix as you think?

I know nothing about how the terrain is created and trees are placed, so I have no idea how easy or difficult this would be to address.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:32 am

Oh. My. God. :facepalm:

The endtimes are nigh, a videogame doesn't have 100% accurate plant botany per Earth flora!

/wrists

Hahaha...

It would be nice if some game would dynamicly generate roots for trees depending on the geometry of the landscape and rocks around it. I however don't expect that from a game for a good long while.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:35 am

Maybe it's the dreaded tree demon of Engaleroth! It must be waiting for an unsuspecting hero to take a drink from the running water of the waterfall before it pounces with it's "Cursed Pinecone of Entropy" attack!

Pretty sneaky if you ask me.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:14 am

Well, it's official. The game is ruined.

No spears, no tesselation, no ambient occlusion, no vector graphics, no free-flowing physics-based hair, some textures look plastic, the game world is only the size of Oblivion, and the otherwise awesome self-shadowing is ruined by horrible shadow map resolution. And now, the final straw that breaks the camel's back... no perfect recreation of root systems! How can Bethesda release this failure of a game?

I mean, sure it's an open-world RPG in development by Bethesda for five years, set in the TES universe, with 100+ side quests, 120 unique dungeons, dynamic snow, free-roaming dragons developed over a two year period, ten races, 18 skills, 100 rank perks, 180 selectable perks, unique economies affected by damage to the fundaments thereof, a completely rebuilt engine, and with a much greater emphasis on diversity and culture than Oblivion had.

But still.

The game is going to svck. Bethesda should just quit now and spare themselves the shame.

:shakehead:

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:06 am

Well, it's official. The game is ruined.

No spears, no tesselation, no ambient occlusion, no vector graphics, no free-flowing physics-based hair, some textures look plastic, the game world is only the size of Oblivion, and the otherwise awesome self-shadowing is ruined by horrible shadow map resolution. And now, the final straw that breaks the camel's back... no perfect recreation of root systems! How can Bethesda release this failure of a game?

I mean, sure it's an open-world RPG in development by Bethesda for five years, set in the TES universe, with 100+ side quests, 120 unique dungeons, dynamic snow, free-roaming dragons developed over a two year period, ten races, 18 skills, 100 rank perks, 180 selectable perks, unique economies affected by damage to the fundaments thereof, a completely rebuilt engine, and with a much greater emphasis on diversity and culture than Oblivion had.

But still.

The game is going to svck. Bethesda should just quit now and spare themselves the shame.

:shakehead:

Yeah, thank goodness for less skills! <_< Everything else is awesome though.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:10 am

Well, it's official. The game is ruined.

No spears, no tesselation, no ambient occlusion, no vector graphics, no free-flowing physics-based hair, some textures look plastic, the game world is only the size of Oblivion, and the otherwise awesome self-shadowing is ruined by horrible shadow map resolution. And now, the final straw that breaks the camel's back... no perfect recreation of root systems! How can Bethesda release this failure of a game?

I mean, sure it's an open-world RPG in development by Bethesda for five years, set in the TES universe, with 100+ side quests, 120 unique dungeons, dynamic snow, free-roaming dragons developed over a two year period, ten races, 18 skills, 100 rank perks, 180 selectable perks, unique economies affected by damage to the fundaments thereof, a completely rebuilt engine, and with a much greater emphasis on diversity and culture than Oblivion had.

But still.

The game is going to svck. Bethesda should just quit now and spare themselves the shame.

:shakehead:

Haha.....good post :thumbsup:

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:46 am

Cruxador: You keep saying that this would be easy to fix (you've said this, or some form of it, four times in this thread). I was wondering if you could elaborate on that. Is it possible that it might not be as easy to fix as you think?

I know nothing about how the terrain is created and trees are placed, so I have no idea how easy or difficult this would be to address.

I guess there's theoretically a possibility that it would be nontrivial. But honestly, I'm pretty sure that the guy who coded this has at least some idea of what he's doing, and probably even learned how to code in a formal setting. Therefore, the tree placement code is almost certainly not a huge enough mess to make this difficult.

Well, it's official. The game is ruined.

No spears, no tesselation, no ambient occlusion, no vector graphics, no free-flowing physics-based hair, some textures look plastic, the game world is only the size of Oblivion, and the otherwise awesome self-shadowing is ruined by horrible shadow map resolution. And now, the final straw that breaks the camel's back... no perfect recreation of root systems! How can Bethesda release this failure of a game?

I mean, sure it's an open-world RPG in development by Bethesda for five years, set in the TES universe, with 100+ side quests, 120 unique dungeons, dynamic snow, free-roaming dragons developed over a two year period, ten races, 18 skills, 100 rank perks, 180 selectable perks, unique economies affected by damage to the fundaments thereof, a completely rebuilt engine, and with a much greater emphasis on diversity and culture than Oblivion had.

But still.

The game is going to svck. Bethesda should just quit now and spare themselves the shame.

:shakehead:

I didn't know the lack of spears was confirmed. That's a bummer. Can't say I care about the various graphical concerns people have, they sound pretty unimportant. And it's not like very many people will refrain from buying the game just because of the spears.
And like I said, I am aware that this is a minor concern.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:31 am

I guess there's theoretically a possibility that it would be nontrivial. But honestly, I'm pretty sure that the guy who coded this has at least some idea of what he's doing, and probably even learned how to code in a formal setting. Therefore, the tree placement code is almost certainly not a huge enough mess to make this difficult.

Oh, I have no doubt that the programmers are competent. But this is a relative issue, not an absolute one. They will be measuring how trivial or non-trivial it would be to fix this against other matters that may be more pressing.

I don't know, in general the trees don't bother me that much. I hear where you're coming from, but it wouldn't upset me greatly if this wasn't fixed. There are a lot of other issues I would rather have them spend their time on.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:25 am

lol its not a realistic game. Are there dragons and orcs in real life? Maybe in Skyrim that's how trees grow.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:47 am

No. I merely was pointing out a minor issue. I have been told that the devs do read these forums, ideally one will see this and be like "oh, I can fix that in ten minutes", and then do so. Even if that doesn't happen, and this problem is in the game that ships, it's no big deal.

This is merely an attempt to aid Bethesda in making a slightly less imperfect game.

Are you sure? Seems like it could take a bit of time.

From what I've read many of the trees are handmade(Use of a better word?).

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:14 pm

Oh, I have no doubt that the programmers are competent. But this is a relative issue, not an absolute one. They will be measuring how trivial or non-trivial it would be to fix this against other matters that may be more pressing.

I don't know, in general the trees don't bother me that much. I hear where you're coming from, but it wouldn't upset me greatly if this wasn't fixed. There are a lot of other issues I would rather have them spend their time on.

They already have things that affect where trees can be placed in relation to other objects, since trees don't grow unrealistically close together. And they already have something that references rocks, since there are no trees that grow through rocks. Thus the framework already exists.

I'd be somewhat surprise if it took more than half an hour.

lol its not a realistic game. Are there dragons and orcs in real life? Maybe in Skyrim that's how trees grow.

This was already discussed. Please at least skim the thread before posting. It's not even that long.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:47 pm

I'm not sure I have anything constructive to add, but I have to be a part of this INSANE thread. First of all that screenshot in unofficial IIRC, and second of all WTF!?! Just WTF!?!

Trees can grow almost anywhere, and this nit picking is soooooo useless. At least the OP got a nice long thread out of this.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:23 pm

They already have things that affect where trees can be placed in relation to other objects, since trees don't grow unrealistically close together. And they already have something that references rocks, since there are no trees that grow through rocks. Thus the framework already exists.

I'd be somewhat surprise if it took more than half an hour.

I've done some basic programming in my time, but on a very small and limited scale. Even on that small scale, no major change to an algorithm/calculation takes a half hour. It doesn't matter if the framework is already in place or not. The reason is that it is not just about coding that change, it's about doing all the testing required to make sure that the new code does what you want it to do and doesn't interfere with anything else. In a sandbox world like Skyrim, that testing is going to take many half hours to make sure it works right (otherwise what's the point?).

Our ideas on how long it would take, though, are all purely speculation. Personally, I would be dumbfounded if it took less than a half hour from soup to nuts. But again, I have no idea. What it really comes down to is how important Bethesda thinks this issue is. Game development is a zero-sum game--any time spent dealing with one issue is time that is not spent dealing with another issue. Issues need to be prioritized, and if something is low enough on the list of priorities it is not going to be addressed before release.

Apparently this issue bothers you somewhat, and since you are convinced that fixing it could be accomplished over a lunch break, I can understand why you would expect the change to be made. I'm not starting from the same set of assumptions, though, so I reach a different conclusion. Who knows what is actually going on inside Bethesda?

[Edit: in other words, maybe it's an important issue to them, maybe it isn't--and maybe they've already fixed it!]

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:02 am

I'd be bugged if things in my game environment looked like they were incomplete or couldn't exist where they are. I care enough about trees that this would be one of the things to break my immersion. But, I disagree with your assertions that a root system couldn't exist in this case.

A taproot wouldn't be hindered by its juxtaposition to a lake, since the taproot would grow downward, and wouldn't be as thick as the trunk. Lateral roots would avoid the fully submerged areas (at least for pine), but these also would not be spreading or on the surface. This link has photos to illustrate my point: http://www.jhaa.org/articles/tree-root-systems.htm. Since the depth of the lake in the screen shot would be shallow at the edges, there'd be plenty of room for a pine's lateral roots.

It would look weird to me if the tree's root structure didn't mimic its canopy. The tree that bugs me is the one in the center/right, because it looks to have a fibrous root system. I have to pretend that those are the roots of the small herbaceous bushes around it.

They all look more like spruce or firs to me, because where I'm from, pines aren't conical. But, where I'm from, pine trees only grow in the rocklands, most of which are seasonally flooded. Seeing tall pines growing out of rock (which their woody taproots have little issue burrowing through) or with their bases submerged in water does not look strange to me, even though I know that they don't like wet feet.

I looked up some photos that look similar to this scene. Simply think of these when you play the game.

Pine growing by water:

http://www2.stetson.edu/~pmay/habitats/cypress-pine%20flatwoods%20-%20Tiger%20Bay.jpg (notice that the tree growing in the water is cypress, not pine)

http://trinityalpsphoto.blogspot.com/2007/12/sugar-pine-lake.html (http://bp0.blogger.com/__cx7WUA7v6c/R3nG7OOZ9CI/AAAAAAAAAZo/SmlvES-0jiA/s1600-h/Sugar+Pine+Lake.JPG pine in the lake)

http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/1039395252034613916vJxrit (seasonal flooding)

http://v7.cache4.c.bigcache.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/2514772.jpg?redirect_counter=1

http://susty.com/image/view-from-water-pine-forest-lake-water-surface-green-tree-covered-slopes-mountains-great-bear-rainforest-canada-photo.jpg

http://assets.vacationhomerentals.com/assets/propimg/42/41042/thumb3_pine_rock_from_lake.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/masakowskiphotography/4222163901/

Pine growing on rock:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2745588170055889373UeBhnq

http://www.weijondin.org/photos/html.asp?f=0&on=1&o0=4&c=8&cs=61&p=390&op=0&lc=8&ls=61

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_144/1178255840ywSw9v.jpg

http://image61.webshots.com/61/7/84/56/476778456GMAaej_ph.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13732722@N00/3747510875/

Whew!

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:42 am

i hear that! ruins immersion. for example, when i heard that dragons were going to be in i was FURIOUS. who are they to think they can make a fantasy game and put dragons in there. its sickening.

/sarcasm.