So does the tribunal temple still exist and operate during Dagons invasion of tamriel or has it totally fallen apart in the last few years or maybe changed doctrine to the worship of daedra? Are the dunmer even aware that their gods are no longer gods and that two are dead? I remember in morrowind nobody would believe you if you told them. The dark elves always reminded me of crazy fanatics in regards to the temple and would seem unlikely that the temple would be abolished in the short time period between morrowind and oblivion.
I hope they do not go about worshiping the nine *yawn*...they certainly had such a unique and exotic religion.

Apparently Vivec's 'gone missing', or possibly been 'taken by the daedra'. According to one of the Dunmer in Oblivion the temple still exists, since they left to get away from all the "sour tribunal grumbling".

According to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Avrus_Adas, Dunmer Priest of the Cult of Zenithar:

"I used to be a priest of the Tribunal Temple in Kragenmoor. After the collapse, I drifted for a while, until I joined the Chapel. The beggars and the wicked Thieves Guild still trouble me. I wish the Nine Divines offered charity and comfort to the poor like the Temple did."


He speaks of the Temple in past tense..not as if speaking about an organization that still exists. Perhaps it's fallen apart completely or greatly diminished in power to regional cults.

I'd say the latter, an orginization with that much power can't just disappear overnight, even if it was outed as fraudulent.

Oblivion lore-breaking a side, I always believed the temple would just revert to the practice of worshiping the three "good" Daedra once the Tribunal were gone. It seems the most logical course for a group of people addicted to power.

That is precisely what Lord Vivec said he would instruct his Archcanon and Priests to do, but with House ward and machinations by Helseth the Temple probably lost more support than it otherwise would. Also, Redoran took some hard blows, before, during, and presumably after the Oblivion crisis. Indoril's seen better days too...basically the strongest Temple worshiping Houses are in poor condition currently.

My idea is they'd listen to the ashlanders and go back to the old way... Ancestor Worship...

They never even left ancestor worship, truthfully. It was a big part of the Temple structure... every family tomb had a minor ghostfence (in the lore, not the game) signifying the importance of ancestor remains and spirits for the Dunmer. In all likelihood, the New Temple or the remnants of the Temple is a combination of the cults of Azura, Boethia and Mephala with some ancestor worship thrown in. You have to remember that the Dunmer believe themselves to be descended from these war spirits, and so consider the three "Good Daedra" as their most powerful and ancient anestors. This is a lie if other creation myths are taken into account. The Daedric Princes had no physical role in the creation of the Dunmer or their predecessors the Chimer - however, metaphorically, their ideals and teachings changed them mentally and spiritually from the Aldmer they were. If you look at it from an ideological standpoint, then the Good Daedra are indeed the ancestors of the Dunmer people, from a certain point of view.

I really have nothing to contribute specifically, I simply like to point out that it is completely and utterly absurd for the Temple to collapse or even really diminish much in those few years. If the rulers of the Temple were even moderately decent at what they do they could have held it together just fine. Personally I think that this was a total lack of thinking on the dev's part.

I would disagree with that. 2/3 of the tribunal is dead, one is gone. At minimum I think this makes the ability of the temple to project its influence and power beyond Vivec next to nothing. If it wasn't for the events of Oblivion I would have said that the houses with more Imperial ties (Hlaau) would gain in power and those whose influence was not closely associated with the the Temple (Telvanni) would be largely unaffected. I think we would see the temple relegated to a position similar to what we saw the Cult take in Oblivion, an important part of the culture but not a seat of political power.

I don't think it is lack of thinking on their part, they are just leaving themselves options for when they decide to revisit the setting in another game.

Yes, but the Tribunal had been recluses for quite some time - nobody saw them but the highest echelons of the Temple, and besides, Alma and Seht died in the Clockwork city, which nobody can get to to provide proof of their deaths. Even in-game while you're the Nerevarine the only people who believe you when you say that they're dead are Helseth and Vivec, everybody Dunmer down to the lowest commoner (including Hlaalu and Telvanni) will tell you to go and repent, meaning that the Temple is pretty damn deep-seeded into the minds of the people when they won't even believe the savior of Morrowind when he tells them the gods are dead. The Temple has been around for over 3000 years, an establishment like that cannot die overnight.

So, we have populace that refuse to believe the gods are dead even when the Nerevarine himself tells them. We have no actual proof that the Tribunal are dead (and you can't just waive this off by saying that the Nerevarine gave the populace proof and thereby destroyed the Temple in the process, because my Nerevarine sure as crap wouldn't have done that), and we have a Temple hierarchy that could easily cover-up the disappearance. Not only that, but the Temple has just had a huge victory over Dagoth Ur, who has been their 'devil' since its establishment; there's no way the people would abandon it after such a recent demonstration of influence.

As I said, it is absurd for it to even come close to collapsing in that period of time. The only real hit they've taken is the waning of House Indoril, and despite them being a major supporter of the Temple the establishment was by no means resting upon the Indoril.

It doesn't make any more options available.

I think their lack of concrete comments on the state of the temple in Oblivion, particularly post crisis, leaves them very open. Though I would agree with most of your initial comments, I have yet to get around to completing tribunal so I wasn't aware of the lack of people believing the nereverain.

Whatever the case, their deaths have been mentioned in the PGE 3E, and at some point the Dunmer must notice the disappearances of Almalexia and Vivec.

Luagar2: I agree that the Tribunal religion is going to stick. However, I don't think it's unbelievable that the temple itself would collapse.

The Temple's two biggest political supporters are in ruin. Indoril has been destroyed by politics and Redoran has been destroyed by Daedra. Meanwhile, Imperial missionaries are going all around Morrowind preaching their religion. And then you have to consider the Oblivion Crisis--Dagon tried to attack Mournhold once before but was defeated by Almalexia. Now that she's dead, what's to stop him from tearing one of the most holy cities in Morrowind to pieces? (Well, okay, High Ordinators. But they can only do so much against a seemingly-infinite army of Daedra.)

And the mere idea of an invasion by one of the Four Corners of the House of Troubles would shake the foundation of the Temple. We saw how the invasion caused many Nine-worshipping Imperials to question or loose their faith. Think about what it's like for the Dunmer, whose gods have a long history of actively opposing Dagon & Pals.

According to the Temple, the Daedra are the Dunmer's ancestors. And like what Eno Romari said:


And:

Yeah, that foreshadowing in Tribunal was pretty big. Even with the crisis over, if this prophesy hold as much water as it seems, we have yet to see the full damage that MD has really caused. In addition, I can probably see why now the dunmer may start to also become really disenfranchised with the idea of worshiping any daedra at all.

Though, while that one ex-temple priest's sentiments are probably going to be more of what the MW dunmer will feel, when he said it was a little earlier, but it does foreshadow of what the dunmer will probably begin to think. Hell, Indoril and Redoran cannot ignore the devastation that just occurred. It was one thing during the first age when the Tribunal barely defeated MD. However, this time they were not there to help fend off the daedra, which would also have an effect of ruining the idea of the 3 "good" daedra. Not even the thought of the Anticipations worked at all, which they could have easily used during the first era and traced it as help from the 3 "good" daedra. If the three "good" daedra cared, they would have helped intervene during the invasion; but they didn't.

Yes, which is why I think the devs just screwed up by putting that in there and not thinking through how exactly the people would come across that knowledge or how they would react, because really, there's no way anybody could have figured out they were dead. The Clockwork City is completely blocked off so not even the Archcanon would actually be aware of their deaths unless he has some metaphysical link to them, but he would have no reason to just tell the populace that they're dead especially considering they've always came back to life in the past. Almost nobody knows that the Tribunal's source of power is gone and that they can't just resurrect, so really, the public knowing they're dead and actually believing it makes no sense at all.

Martin perhaps? As far as we know the only place Dagon spawned was in the IC and he was defeated before he could even do much damage there. Also, Dagon doesn't really have anything against the city of Almalexia, he was sent by a third party the first time. I'm ok with the Temple as an organization struggling abit, but the degree which Oblivion makes it out to be is absurd, and my main contention is with the people turning away from the faith and very fact that people know that the Tribunal are dead. The people would not have turned away from the faith that they, their grandparents, and their great great great grandparents have had all their lives, especially after the events of Morrowind where the Temple's enemy was defeated, and the people could not have figured out that the Tribunal were dead, and even if they were told they wouldn't believe it or would just assume that they'd come back to life like they always have.

The party line probably now is that the Tribunal have ascended into sainthood. I agree that the ordinary people shouldn't be losing their faith so easily just because the Daedra invaded Tamriel. Maybe the Collapse is more the collapse of the Temple hierarchy. In the course of "Morrowind", the Nerevarine cleaned house, killing most of the Inquisition priests (at least in Vivec City). The Dissident Priests probably gained in power, though I have to admit I've forgotten how much of their knowledge is forbidden and unknown to the public.

Well, Vivec is gone, And Almexia/Sotha Sil are dead, so yah, I think the tribunal is gone.

The King and Queen Mother of Morrowind, however, both believed the Nerevarine's account. It may be that the PGE 3E is going by what Helseth says regarding it. And of course, Vivec may have mentioned that they're dead somewhere along the line, as he believed the Nerevarine as well.

Ha, since when do you ascend from godhood to sainthood? I don't remember killing many Temple priests during the main quest, I actually don't explicitly recall having to kill any.

It's possible the PGE is based off Helseth's words, but Vivec spilling the beans is highly unlikely, partially because he has no motive to, partially because he lives in isolation and doesn't seem to talk to anybody anyway, and partially due to him having 'disappeared'. Still, I can't see the populace believing an imperial official from High Rock like Helseth (who obviously has no Dunmer pride) while refusing to believe the Nerevarine.

"Without the power of the Heart, our divine powers diminish. Our days as gods are numbered. I have told my priests that I shall withdraw from the world, and that the Temple should be prepared for a change. We may be honored no longer as gods, but as saints and heroes, and the Temple will return to the faith of our forefathers -- the worship of our ancestors and the three good daedra, Azura, Mephala, and Boethiah. The missions and traditions of the Temple must continue... but without its Living Gods." -- Lord Vivec

He says that before Almalexia or Sotha Sil are dead, meaning that "without its Living Gods" is referring to them becoming mortal and therefore not being able to perform the same role they did previously. He spoke of reorganizing the Temple and dedicating their energies to different matters, hardly something you can accomplish by letting the people know that 2/3rds of their deities are dead.

The tribunal faith wont go away in just a few years, but after maybe 10, 15 years of no appearance or even a sign of the tribunal, the people will realize something is obviously wrong. I'd say that after about 100 years (if that) the people of Morrowind will have switched completely to a new faith, perhaps even acknowledging that the tribunal were never gods in the first place.

^agreed. I wonder what religion they will turn to though after all is said and done. Like previous posters pointed out I doubt they look too fondly at any daedra prince after the oblivion crises but I doubt the nine really suite them either since they never really *directly* influence things.

Ancestor worship. Like the Ashlanders.