Trouble at the Waterfront : IV

» Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:28 pm

Hi there folks,

I'm having some serious problems at the waterfront. One of the problems is that with my current load order, I get CTD's every time I enter the Waterfront. This sometimes happens instantly but sometimes I can run around for about 30 seconds before the game crashes. When I disable all my mods, I can run around with no crashed the whole time. This however is where my second problem comes in. All the doors of the waterfront have somehow moved floating above the water next to the slums. I have no idea how this has happens and how I can fix it. I can not enter them as it results only in a crashed game. Maybe both problems are related but I'm not sure.

Here's my load order (BOSS):

Spoiler

Active Mod Files:00  Oblivion.esm01  underdark.esm02  TR_OoT_Main.esm  [Version 17]03  Hammerfell.esm04  Silgrad_Tower.esm  [Version 3.36]05  ScreenEffects.esm06  All Natural Base.esm  [Version 1.0]07  Cobl Main.esm  [Version 1.72]08  TamRes.esm09  Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm  [Version 1.34]0A  Waalx Animals & Creatures.esm0B  CyrodiilUpgradeResourcePack.esm0C  Better Cities Resources.esm  [Version 4.8.4]0D  BetterMusicSystem.esm0E  CURP_Controller.esm0F  Toaster Says Share v3.esm10  StarX Vampire Deaths.esm11  Oblivifall Master File.esm  [Version 1.0]12  TRoN.esp**  TRoN Vwalk.esp**  TNR ALL RACES FINAL.esp**  Cobl Races TNR SI.esp  [Version 1.53]13  Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp  [Version 3.2.5]14  UOP Vampire Aging & Face Fix.esp  [Version 1.0.0]15  Oblivion Citadel Door Fix.esp16  DLCShiveringIsles.esp17  Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp  [Version 1.4.0]**  Oblivion Vwalk UOS.esp**  DLCShiveringIsles Vwalk UOS.esp**  DLCShiveringIsles Vwalk DG_DS UOS.esp**  TNR ALL RACES FINAL Vwalk UOS.esp18  Better Cities .esp19  TamRes.esp++  RedBag - Fog.esp1A  All Natural.esp  [Version 1.1]1B  All Natural - SI.esp  [Version 1.0]1C  Side's EAX Control.esp  [Version 0.9]1D  All Natural - Real Lights.esp  [Version 1.1]1E  WindowLightingSystem.esp1F  300_Lore_Dialogue_Updated.esp20  ClocksOfCyrodiil_BC_OBC_OC_OCLR_Vanilla.esp21  diversegrasses.esp22  Morag Tong Assassins(V1.3).esp23  BetterMusicSystem(SI).esp  [Version 1.0]24  personality_idles4.esp25  Personality Idles - Modified version.esp  [Version 1.2]26  Enhanced Economy.esp  [Version 4.0.6]27  Enhanced Seasons.esp  [Version 1.0]28  FormID Finder4.esp29  Oblivion Graphics Extender Support.esp  [Version 0.3]2A  ScreenControls.esp2B  Streamline 3.1.esp2C  Map Marker Overhaul.esp  [Version 3.4]2D  Map Marker Overhaul - SI additions.esp  [Version 3.0.2]++  MaleBodyReplacerV4.esp2E  Armored Masks.esp2F  Hemingweys NPC Capes.esp  [Version 1.02]30  OS Artifacts.esp  [Version 1.0]31  Vvardenfell_Imports.esp32  XSPipeMod.esp  [Version 1.2]33  Mage Equipment.esp34  Cobl Glue.esp  [Version 1.72]35  Cobl Si.esp  [Version 1.63]++  Cobl Tweaks.esp  [Version 1.44]36  Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp  [Version 1.34]**  Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul Vwalk.esp37  WAC.esp38  WAC - OverSpawn.esp39  WAC - TCOS.esp3A  WAC - TCOS Shops.esp  [Version 03]3B  WAC - BlackBootDungeon.esp3C  WAC - Dead Knights.esp3D  WAC - Player Summons.esp++  WAC-OOO.esp3E  CNRP Brumav02.esp  [Version 0.2]3F  CNRP Chorrol.esp  [Version 1.1]40  CNRP DB.esp  [Version 1.0]41  CNRP Cheydinhal4OOO.esp  [Version 1.0]42  CNRP FightersGuild.esp  [Version 1.0]43  CNRP FightersGuild4OOO.esp  [Version 1.0]44  Oblivifall - Something's Not Right.esp  [Version 1.0]45  Adventures Gear.esp46  Ash's Odd Jobs.esp47  Barbada_Island.esp48  BrotherhoodRenewed.esp  [Version 1.0]49  DarknessHollows.esp4A  Der Orden.esp4B  Hammerfell.esp4C  kingdomofAlmar.esp4D  Kragenir's Death Quest.esp**  Kragenir's Death Quest Vwalk.esp4E  KDQ - Rural Line Additions.esp4F  LordKain_Adash_World.esp**  LordKain_Adash_World Vwalk.esp50  Vampire Hunting - Order of the Virtuous Blood.esp**  Vampire Hunting - Order Of The Virtuous Blood Vwalk.esp51  Reaper's A Friendly Back-Up.esp52  Reaper's Coldstone Town.esp**  Reaper's Coldstone Town Vwalk.esp53  Side's Sailing Ships.esp  [Version 0.9]54  Side's Sailing Ships (COBL).esp  [Version 1.0]55  Silgrad_Tower.esp  [Version 3.36]56  The Crimson Queen.esp  [Version 2.1]57  TheForgottenRealm.esp58  The Lost Tomb.esp59  TheElderCouncil.esp5A  TEC_4ERA_Dialog_Filter.esp5B  TR_Stirk.esp**  TR_Stirk Vwalk.esp5C  Valenwood Improved.esp  [Version 0512]5D  Villages1.1.esp5E  FrbitTravel.esp5F  Knights.esp**  Knights Vwalk.esp60  RTT.esp**  RTT Vwalk.esp61  MTCExpandedVillages.esp62  CUO_Bravil.esp63  Blood&Mud.esp64  Blood&Mud - EE patch.esp  [Version 1.0]**  Blood&Mud Vwalk.esp65  Origin of the Mages Guild.esp  [Version 7.1]66  TheNecromancer.esp67  MannimarcoComplete.esp68  Tamriel.esp69  ElsweyrAnequina.esp6A  BetterMusicSystem(Elsweyr).esp  [Version 1.1]**  ElsweyrAnequina Vwalk.esp6B  ElsweyrValenwoodImprovedPatch.esp6C  Walkabout.esp6D  HammerfellBorders.esp6E  Oblivifall - Losing My Religion.esp  [Version 1.3]6F  TWMP_Valenwood_Elsweyr.esp70  TWMP_Summerset.esp71  TWMP_Hammerfell.esp72  TWMP_HighRock.esp73  TWMP_Skyrim.esp74  TWMP_Morrowind.esp75  TWMP_BlackMarsh.esp76  CUO_Bruma.esp77  CUO_Chorrol.esp78  CUO_Leyawiin.esp79  xuldarkforest.esp  [Version 1.0.4]7A  xulStendarrValley.esp  [Version 1.2.2]7B  xulTheHeath.esp7C  XulEntiusGorge.esp7D  xulFallenleafEverglade.esp  [Version 1.3.1]7E  xulColovianHighlands_EV.esp  [Version 1.2.1]7F  xulChorrolHinterland.esp  [Version 1.2.2]**  xulChorrolHinterland Vwalk.esp80  xulBeachesOfCyrodiilLostCoast.esp  [Version 1.6.4]81  KragenirsDeathQuest-LostCoast patch.esp82  OrdenULPatchBeachesOfCyrodiil.esp83  xulBravilBarrowfields.esp  [Version 1.3.2]**  xulBravilBarrowfields Vwalk.esp84  OrdenULPatchBravilBarrowfields.esp85  xulLushWoodlands.esp  [Version 1.3]86  xulAncientYews.esp  [Version 1.4.2]87  xulAncientRedwoods.esp  [Version 1.6]88  xulCloudtopMountains.esp  [Version 1.0.3]89  KragenirsDeathQuest-CloudtopMountains patch.esp8A  xulArriusCreek.esp  [Version 1.1.3]8B  xulPatch_AY_AC.esp  [Version 1.1]8C  xulRollingHills_EV.esp  [Version 1.3.2]**  xulRollingHills_EV Vwalk.esp8D  KragenirsDeathQuest-RollingHills patch.esp8E  xulPantherRiver.esp8F  xulRiverEthe.esp  [Version 1.0.2]90  xulBrenaRiverRavine.esp  [Version 1.0.2]**  xulBrenaRiverRavine Vwalk.esp91  xulImperialIsle.esp  [Version 1.6.3]**  xulImperialIsle Vwalk.esp92  xulBlackwoodForest.esp93  xulCheydinhalFalls.esp  [Version 1.0.1]94  xulAspenWood.esp  [Version 1.0.1]**  xulAspenWood Vwalk.esp95  xulSkingradOutskirts.esp**  xulSkingradOutskirts Vwalk.esp96  xulSnowdale.esp  [Version 1.0]97  xulCliffsOfAnvil.esp98  ImpeREAL Empire - Unique Forts.esp99  Fort Akatosh Redux.esp**  Fort Akatosh Redux Vwalk.esp9A  NPC new clothes V2.6 Modified.esp9B  Oblivifall - Ambiant Dungeon SFX.esp  [Version 1.1]9C  Side's Backpacks.esp  [Version 1.0]9D  StarX Vampire Deaths.esp9E  Werewolf-Legends.esp9F  Alternative Start by Robert Evrae.espA0  Unholy Darkness.espA1  CLS-OldFriends-OBSE.espA2  Energy - Beautiful Elves.espA3  Toaster Says Share Faction Recruitment.espA4  1em_Vilja.esp  [Version 3.0]++  1em_Vilja_as_Custom_by_Xtudo.espA5  Cobl Races.esp  [Version 1.52]A6  bgBalancingEVCore.esp  [Version 10.52EV-D]A7  bgMagicEV.esp  [Version 1.7EV]**  bgMagicEV Vwalk.esp++  bgMagicEVStartspells.esp  [Version 1.68EV]**  bgBalancingEVOptionalNPCDiversity, TNR Merge.esp  [Version 10.0EV-D]A8  bgIntegrationEV.esp  [Version 0.993]**  bgIntegrationEV - Alternative NPC Faces by LazyMonk.esp  [Version 0.99]++  bgIntegrationEV - Unique Clothes.esp  [Version 0.99]**  bgIntegrationEV Vwalk.espA9  Better Cities Full - B&M Edition.esp  [Version 4.8.4]**  Better Cities Full - B&M Edition Vwalk.espAA  Better Cities Full B&M - CUO Bravil Patch.esp  [Version 4.7.0]AB  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Barrowfields.esp  [Version 4.7.0]AC  Better Cities - Ruined Tail's Tale.esp  [Version 4.8.0]AD  Better Cities - CUO Chorrol Patch.esp  [Version 4.8.4]AE  Better Cities Full B&M - CUO Chorrol Patch.esp  [Version 4.7.0]AF  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Chorrol Hinterland.esp  [Version 4.8.4]B0  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Cheydinhal Falls.esp  [Version 4.8.1]B1  Better Cities Full B&M - CUO Leyawiin Patch.esp  [Version 4.7.0]B2  Better Cities Full B&M - CUO Bruma Patch.esp  [Version 4.8.0]B3  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Skingrad Outskirts.esp  [Version 4.8.1]B4  Better Cities - Werewolf-Legends.esp  [Version 4.7.0]B5  Better Imperial City.esp  [Version 4.8.4]B6  Better Imperial City - OMG.esp  [Version 4.7.0]B7  Hemingweys Capes.esp  [Version 2.00]B8  UnderdarkSaga.esp**  UnderdarkSaga Vwalk.esp++  CoreRandmonClothing4Npcs.esp++  Cobl Filter Late MERGE ONLY.esp  [Version 1.53]**  All Natural - Indoor Weather Filter For Mods.esp  [Version 1.1]B9  Bashed Patch, 0.espBA  TWMP_Tamriel_Ingame_ Map.espBB  WAC - Legion.espBC  WAC - Birds&Insects.espBD  WAC - Horses.espBE  WAC - Companions.espBF  WAC - Gladiator.espC0  Benjamin the Donkey - pimped up version.espC1  007s_DragonfireTradeAndTransport.esp  [Version 1.0]C2  CurseOfHircine - Symphony of Night.espC3  Davidtest.esp

» Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:19 am

Bump!

» Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Try completely deactivating Better Cities. If you build your load order more slowly, I doubt you'd miss this sort of mess. Try to pick out any mods that affect that area.

Edit: One more very important thing, use a new game when you are testing this because world space edits are "sticky." If you recently did a major BC upgrade (i.e., v3.xx to v4.xx) then you should have made a clean save before upgrading anyway. That practice is applicable to other mods as well. Read the docs.

Edit: Okay, skip Better Cities, but you're looking for some mod that modifies the IC Waterfront. Again, FormID Finder is your friend...

» Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:32 am

-I'm seeing some improper BOSS usage here. All those files after the Bashed Patch do not belong there, you are supposed to hand-order them.

-You are missing a compatibility patch for UL-II and IC Waterfront.

-The floating doors are a bug the game has with persistent references (such as load doors) being moved around, and it occasionally occurs if you reload a save without first quitting to the desktop.

» Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:57 am

-The floating doors are a bug the game has with persistent references (such as load doors) being moved around, and it occasionally occurs if you reload a save without first quitting to the desktop.

...super annoying bug...

» Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:12 am

Thanks for the replies! Will try those things tonight when I get back from work and report back here.

» Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:13 pm

Nothing to do with Better Cities. Floating doors out over water means that a mod has relocated the vanilla buildings in the Waterfront, you have visited that location, and then you have removed the mod which relocated the doors. Doors are persistent objects; as soon as the game loads a persistent object into memory (i.e. when you enter the cell containing the object or when you are up to two worldspace cells away from the cell it is in) the location of that persistent object is stored permanently into your savegames. So if you visit a location with persistent objects, then install a mod which moves those persistent objects, they will fail to move. If you install a mod which moves persistent objects, visit the location where they are placed, then remove the mod which moved them, the persistent objects will remain where they were moved to rather than revert back to their vanilla location.

Better Cities does NOT move any vanilla doors in the Waterfront. It looks to me like you used to use another mod editing the Waterfront, and you have now removed that mod (perhaps in favour of BC) - that other mod is the likely cause of the problem, whatever mod it was.

» Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:13 am

That mod could very well be The UCM's IC mod. So if I understand you correctly, I need to reinstall that mod, load up my save and move myself at least 4 cells away from the Waterfront. After that I should save, quit and uninstall the mod?

» Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:19 am

That mod could very well be The UCM's IC mod. So if I understand you correctly, I need to reinstall that mod, load up my save and move myself at least 4 cells away from the Waterfront. After that I should save, quit and uninstall the mod?

Clean save without the mod, move over a few cells, wait your one hour past your cell respawn period (default 72 hours) and see if that takes care of the issue. If not, if the floating doors are still there along with the original doors, you can disable the floating copies through the console by clicking on them and typing 'disable'. Doing that permanently disables them.

» Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:09 pm

I haven't used the UCM's mod for quite some time now so that hasn't fixed it (I played around the Anvil area for some time). The problem is that the "vanilla" doors are still there, I just can't click them. I'm afraid that if I disable the misplaced doors I can't get the vanilla ones back.

» Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:20 pm

No, I'm saying it cannot be fixed. Once a persistent object has been saved by your savegame, it stays where it is forever from that save onwards. Reinstalling the mod which moved it won't help, unless you continue to use that mod. The only option is to create a new mod which disables and replaces all the relocated doors, with the replacements being back where they were originally. Or to find a save from before you visited the Waterfront with that mod active, so that the persistent objects won't yet have been added to your saves.

» Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:53 am

I haven't used the UCM's mod for quite some time now so that hasn't fixed it (I played around the Anvil area for some time). The problem is that the "vanilla" doors are still there, I just can't click them. I'm afraid that if I disable the misplaced doors I can't get the vanilla ones back.

You can't click the vanilla doors that are floating or those that are in the original spots.

» Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:06 am

I can click the floating mods and enter the building that it leads to. I can't click the vanillia doors:)

Could the crash also be related to this?

» Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:57 am

I had to restart the game when having a similar issue with another mod. It was very annoying.

» Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:06 am

I can click the floating mods and enter the building that it leads to. I can't click the vanillia doors:)

That sounds really bad. I wonder what that mod did to the vanilla doors. I have run into duplicate doors into Cheydinhal with BC. (Most recently, the cause was probably loading save files from in game.) However, both sets of doors worked as they should. Try rolling back to before you removed or added the mod or something. It sounds as though they are no longer activators.

» Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:52 pm

That sounds really bad. I wonder what that mod did to the vanilla doors. I have run into duplicate doors into Cheydinhal with BC. (Most recently, the cause was probably loading save files from in game.) However, both sets of doors worked as they should. Try rolling back to before you removed or added the mod or something. It sounds as though they are no longer activators.

I already explained higher up. Another mod relocated the doors. This mod was in use when Quintus Sertorius visited the Waterfront, which permanently stored the door's location in his/her gamesave - then this mod was removed from Quintus' game. Removing the mod which relocated the doors reset the positions of all non-persistent objects to where they were before, but the persistent doors (and any other persistent objects moved) will remain where the removed mod put them.

The duplicate doors found in relation to BC are something else entirely, and happen only where BC has disabled and replaced (notice "replaced", not "relocated" as this other mod did) some vanilla doors with repositioned ones. The game is a little slow to keep up with mods sometimes, so occasionally the game loads the disabled doors even though they should be disabled, AND loads the new replacement doors in their new location. Saving, quitting to desktop and reloading will remind the game to disable the disabled doors, thus removing the duplication. Entirely different to what has happened here however.

» Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:50 pm

I already explained higher up. Another mod relocated the doors. This mod was in use when Quintus Sertorius visited the Waterfront, which permanently stored the door's location in his/her gamesave - then this mod was removed from Quintus' game. Removing the mod which relocated the doors reset the positions of all non-persistent objects to where they were before, but the persistent doors (and any other persistent objects moved) will remain where the removed mod put them.

The duplicate doors found in relation to BC are something else entirely, and happen only where BC has disabled and replaced (notice "replaced", not "relocated" as this other mod did) some vanilla doors with repositioned ones. The game is a little slow to keep up with mods sometimes, so occasionally the game loads the disabled doors even though they should be disabled, AND loads the new replacement doors in their new location. Saving, quitting to desktop and reloading will remind the game to disable the disabled doors, thus removing the duplication. Entirely different to what has happened here however.

Oh, so the doors that I was seeing floating in the air were actually copies of your new doors. Is relocating normal practice? I guess that means the doors are lost in the OP's recent saves then...

I have another question. (:)) A couple of saves ago, I decided to disable some of the duplicate doors I saw floating in Cheydinhal. Disabling those doesn't have any bad side effects, does it? I made sure that the correctly placed version of the door still worked. Was I just doing what the game does when I quit to the desktop and relaunch?

» Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:05 am

Oh, so the doors that I was seeing floating in the air were actually copies of your new doors. Is relocating normal practice? I guess that means the doors are lost in the OP's recent saves then...

I have another question. (:)) A couple of saves ago, I decided to disable some of the duplicate doors I saw floating in Cheydinhal. Disabling those doesn't have any bad side effects, does it? I made sure that the correctly placed version of the door still worked. Was I just doing what the game does when I quit to the desktop and relaunch?

"Relocating" unfortunately is normal practice, as most modders don't know about persistent objects and how they get stored permanently in the save files. The better method is to disable the original object, and create a copy in the location you want it to be. Which unfortunately then occasionally leads to the issue you had where the game failed to register the disable toggle and displays both the original and the copy. Still, that's better than permanently relocating an object with no way to restore it. If it weren't for the issue with the game CTDing on exit, the best method would be to delete the original object and create a copy somewhere else. However due to the CTD problem on exit if one mod tries to edit something which an earlier mod deleted, that becomes a poor method. Although personally I don't have a problem with the game giving a CTD on exit. I was exiting the game anyway, so what if it crashes along the way? Some say this can cause file corruption, whether correct or not I don't know, but the game crashes enough during normal gameplay that I feel it can't make it any worse. But that's my opinion, and because of the potential for CTDs and the possibility that those potential CTDs might cause corruption, object deletion is a total no-no.
Yes, most likely your manual disabling just did what a quit-to-desktop and reload would have done anyway.

» Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:50 am

"Relocating" unfortunately is normal practice, as most modders don't know about persistent objects and how they get stored permanently in the save files. The better method is to disable the original object, and create a copy in the location you want it to be. Which unfortunately then occasionally leads to the issue you had where the game failed to register the disable toggle and displays both the original and the copy. Still, that's better than permanently relocating an object with no way to restore it. If it weren't for the issue with the game CTDing on exit, the best method would be to delete the original object and create a copy somewhere else. However due to the CTD problem on exit if one mod tries to edit something which an earlier mod deleted, that becomes a poor method. Although personally I don't have a problem with the game giving a CTD on exit. I was exiting the game anyway, so what if it crashes along the way? Some say this can cause file corruption, whether correct or not I don't know, but the game crashes enough during normal gameplay that I feel it can't make it any worse. But that's my opinion, and because of the potential for CTDs and the possibility that those potential CTDs might cause corruption, object deletion is a total no-no.
Yes, most likely your manual disabling just did what a quit-to-desktop and reload would have done anyway.

You have to use the saveini function to preserver changes to the Oblivion.ini. (The most important for me is usually the next screenshot index.) I can't remember having corrupt save issues related to CTD on exit, but it requires less work to exit cleanly.

Thanks for the replies!
- Tomlong75210

» Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:48 pm

Yes, but how many people know that console command

? I just mark my INI as read-only once it's set how I want it to be, thus ensuring that the game cannot edit it and guaranteeing it never accidentally corrupts it.

» Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:55 am

The incorrectly moved doors can be reset provided you know which ones are which and you know what coordinates they belong at. You'd have to use the console and the SetPos command to change them, or write a small mod with a script to do that for you.

As far as crash at exit, best cure for that is Fast Exit 2.

» Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:32 pm

A5 Cobl Races.esp [Version 1.52]

A6 bgBalancingEVCore.esp [Version 10.52EV-D]

Does not Help any that they are running Two Races Mod either..Which in this case is a big No No and Bad JuJu..

Remove Cobl Races and Cobl Races TNR and SI and TNR since you are using it big Brother Race Balancing Project - BgBalancingEVCore.esp and its TNR Plugins once again..

Cobl Races is based off older version of Race Balancing Project once again...