Tsaesci: Are they really Akaviri? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Fri May 13, 2011 2:49 pm

that there Dragon Break really messed up a lot of Lore - so old-timers often find ourselves caught out ... but

The Potentate Versuda Shae was Chancellor to the then Emperor and after arranging the permanent absence of the entire royalk family at the hands of said Emperor the Potentate / Chancellor then arranged the demise of the Emperor himself and thus remained chancellor as the sole power until (in the interests of maintaining stability) he finally, 'reluctantly' accepted the Imperial Seat.

Of course he did not live forever ... so either immorrtal indicates there are incredibly long-lived Tsaesci - or there are certain other limitations to their potential immortality. Or the Tsaesci Emperor was not Tsaesci ...

Otherwise, could the 'humans' on the other continent have been assimilated into the Tsaesci bloodlines or svcked to death by them?

Also, just thinking that the 'true' Tsaesci might be a faction within that far-off race that indeed was immortal and that the entire race then took the name of that faction.

Unless more Lore is presented such 'how it works in practice' questions are likely to remain unanswered.

» Fri May 13, 2011 6:14 am

Of course he did not live forever ... so either immorrtal indicates there are incredibly long-lived Tsaesci - or there are certain other limitations to their potential immortality. Or the Tsaesci Emperor was not Tsaesci ...
Otherwise, could the 'humans' on the other continent have been assimilated into the Tsaesci bloodlines or svcked to death by them?

he was assassinated, along with the next Tsaeci potentate

» Fri May 13, 2011 6:44 am

that there Dragon Break really messed up a lot of Lore - so old-timers often find ourselves caught out ... but

...what?

» Fri May 13, 2011 7:58 pm

he was assassinated, along with the next Tsaeci potentate

Consider it suitably ammended to Not Invulnerable then

» Fri May 13, 2011 7:54 am

I think this article is the best explanation,

http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/adanorcilarticle2.shtml

» Fri May 13, 2011 7:32 am

Also, the Tsaesci http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCCdZmHk5Fk, except you don't remember because you never existed.

» Fri May 13, 2011 2:09 pm

I think this article is the best explanation,

http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/adanorcilarticle2.shtml

Yeah. Read it, everyone.

» Fri May 13, 2011 2:45 pm

Yeah. Read it, everyone.

So this leads me to believe they can only be killed by violence, disease, or accidental death?
They could theoretically live forever under the right circumstances?

I always pictured them as having human features such as hands, arms, face (long forked tongue), torso, and possibly legs. Along with a long powerful tail, much more mobile and useful than an Argonian or Khajiits. IMHO.

» Fri May 13, 2011 4:38 am

I thought of them as either half humans with the lower half snake (kinda like that mysterious chick who was all wise and kept herself hidden behind a screen in the Golden Child) and had fangs, or literal snake men

» Fri May 13, 2011 4:08 am

I personally feel once you get a deeper understanding of TES lore and then a somewhat basic understanding of the Tsaesci creation myth, you may begin to question the possible serpentine appearance of the Tsaesci and start to ask if it's merely a metaphor for what they can/have done.

Oh yeah:

Yeah. Read it, everyone.

One of the greatest articles ever written.

» Fri May 13, 2011 8:33 am

My assumptions are that the Tsaesci have variations form almost human like to serpentine in features who dominated the human population in a great war involving humans & dragons Vs Serpents and serpent dragon hybrids (because really snakes beating dragons? not without some kind of help) extincting the Dragon population (through Fleeing or hunting them down) killing or displacing a significant number of humans and having the survivors under subjegation by the Tsaesci...eating them every now and then...and i figured the Vampire part would come from the features of their long serpent fangs and the Immortal from the fact that they represent Vampires which are more or less Ageless......

» Fri May 13, 2011 4:51 am

And the vampire part couldn't represent vampires and the immortal part can't represent ageless directly? really now?

» Fri May 13, 2011 5:01 am

tsaesci creation myth

» Fri May 13, 2011 12:43 pm

In a world of myth, that point is irrelevant.

EDIT: Oh yeah! Immortal Vampire Snakemen.

» Fri May 13, 2011 6:35 am

Yeah. Read it, everyone.

Well as at 14:40 gmt10/22/08 that link gives a really impressive title and author name above a blank page at TIL ... is something missing? :facepalm: No wait , my bad - this is in the style of Jean Paul Sartre.

» Fri May 13, 2011 6:55 am

i'll never get the fanaticism around the phrase "immortal. vampire. snakemen." and why it holds so much value.

with the imperial creation myth in "the annotated anuad", it lists the tsaesci as human along with the nords and redguards.

On the other continents, the Wandering Ehlnofey became the Men: the Nords of Atmora, the Redguards of Yokuda, and the Tsaesci of Akavir.

if they were beastly, surely the myth would've reflected that.

the reports from the battle at ionith reports nothing unusual about the tsaesci, nothing immortal, serpentine, or vampiric, infact, the tsaesci are portrayed as men, and utilize cavalry and are great mounted warriors. surely if the tsaesci were as alien as described in the sensational 2920 or the innaccurate mysterious akavir, it would've been refleced in the report.

there's no art, statues, banners, or anything from the tsaesci potentates or any tsaesci that mingled into the high courts that would suggest snakemen. perhaps they are just mundane enough as humans like the nords or redguards. there's no mention of the nobles that have some tsaesci heritage having any snake features, though it does say they are proud of their facial features, which could possibly be asian-esque.

» Fri May 13, 2011 9:03 am

Does anyone get a blank page with a title form that Tsaesci story page?

Either someone has messed up and deleted a story - or someone is suggesting that there was a story and it has been withdrawn - knowing the TIL crowd that might indicate either it is going to be part of a future release or it's a put on. Frankly, if all it is is those words on an otherwise blank page I am less than impressed.

» Fri May 13, 2011 4:37 pm

i'll never get the fanaticism around the phrase "immortal. vampire. snakemen." and why it holds so much value.

with the imperial creation myth in "the annotated anuad", it lists the tsaesci as human along with the nords and redguards.
if they were beastly, surely the myth would've reflected that.

the reports from the battle at ionith reports nothing unusual about the tsaesci, nothing immortal, serpentine, or vampiric, infact, the tsaesci are portrayed as men, and utilize cavalry and are great mounted warriors. surely if the tsaesci were as alien as described in the sensational 2920 or the innaccurate mysterious akavir, it would've been refleced in the report.

there's no art, statues, banners, or anything from the tsaesci potentates or any tsaesci that mingled into the high courts that would suggest snakemen. perhaps they are just mundane enough as humans like the nords or redguards. there's no mention of the nobles that have some tsaesci heritage having any snake features, though it does say they are proud of their facial features, which could possibly be asian-esque.

I agree with you.
Although, I have never seen an Asian person who resembled a vampire or snake in the least. So I'm going to assume that the Tsaesci have little to no Asian features, and they actually do have serpent like features. IMHO.

» Fri May 13, 2011 8:16 am

i only keep bringing up the asian-esque features since the tsaesci culture is largely based on asian culture. the weapons and armor, the tactics, the architecture, the writing, their names...perhaps it may be a bit biased of me to think that if they are human, they'd have asian features. those are the only features that haven't been utilized in the current races, and would fit the exotic foreign beauty that the tsaesci possess.

» Fri May 13, 2011 4:19 am

with the imperial creation myth in "the annotated anuad", it lists the tsaesci as human along with the nords and redguards.
if they were beastly, surely the myth would've reflected that.

I'll say it again: Tsaesci are men the same way the Ka Po' Tun are elves - it's all an act and the act needs to be casted.

» Fri May 13, 2011 4:44 pm

1E 2703

Reman I of Cyrodiil rallies the Nibenay Valley's army to join the Colovian Estate's army and destroys the Tsaesci of Akavir at Pale Pass of Skyrim. Then Reman I accepts the surrendered Akaviri raiders to strengthen the Imperial army against the Aldmer. This event marks the birth of the Second Empire of Men.
Source: Pocket Guide to The Empire (1st Edition): Cyrodiil.

1E 2920/2E 1

Potentate Versidue-Shaie, a Tsaesci of Akavir, takes over the Cyrodiil Empire after the assassination of the last of the Reman Dynasty.
Source: The Last Year of the First Era, Mysterious Akavir.

2E 283

Potentate Versidue-Shaie faces lots of rebellion throughout the Empire. In the Imperial Council meeting of Bardmont, he declares catholic and universal martial law; all the princes of Tamriel have to dissolve their armies. Most of the princes resist and bloodiest wars throughout Tamriel erupt. Eventually Versidue-Shaie manages to destroy all the resisting armies.
Source: History of the Fighters Guild, First Edition

2E 324

One of the members of Morag Tong assassinates Potentate Versidue-Shaie in his palace in what is today the Elsweyr kingdom of Senchal. Following that event, the Morag Tong is outlawed throughout the continent.
Source: Pocket Guide to the Empire (1st Edition): Cyrodiil, The Brothers of Darkness.

Savirien-Chorak, the son of Potentate Versidue-Shaie continues the Akaviri rule over Tamriel.

2E 430

The latest ruler of Second Empire, Potentate Savirien-Chorak, and every one of his heirs is murdered by The Dark Brotherhood/Morag Tong. This marks the end of the Second Empire.
Source: Pocket Guide to the Empire (1st Edition): Cyrodiil, The Brothers of Darkness.

Immortal Vampire Snakemen.

» Fri May 13, 2011 3:50 pm

I'll say it again: Tsaesci are men the same way the Ka Po' Tun are elves - it's all an act and the act needs to be casted.

so are you suggesting they are shapeshifters or live in duality? or is it comparing apples and oranges?

1E 2703

Reman I of Cyrodiil rallies the Nibenay Valley's army to join the Colovian Estate's army and destroys the Tsaesci of Akavir at Pale Pass of Skyrim. Then Reman I accepts the surrendered Akaviri raiders to strengthen the Imperial army against the Aldmer. This event marks the birth of the Second Empire of Men.
Source: Pocket Guide to The Empire (1st Edition): Cyrodiil.

1E 2920/2E 1

Potentate Versidue-Shaie, a Tsaesci of Akavir, takes over the Cyrodiil Empire after the assassination of the last of the Reman Dynasty.
Source: The Last Year of the First Era, Mysterious Akavir.

2E 283

Potentate Versidue-Shaie faces lots of rebellion throughout the Empire. In the Imperial Council meeting of Bardmont, he declares catholic and universal martial law; all the princes of Tamriel have to dissolve their armies. Most of the princes resist and bloodiest wars throughout Tamriel erupt. Eventually Versidue-Shaie manages to destroy all the resisting armies.
Source: History of the Fighters Guild, First Edition

2E 324

One of the members of Morag Tong assassinates Potentate Versidue-Shaie in his palace in what is today the Elsweyr kingdom of Senchal. Following that event, the Morag Tong is outlawed throughout the continent.
Source: Pocket Guide to the Empire (1st Edition): Cyrodiil, The Brothers of Darkness.

Savirien-Chorak, the son of Potentate Versidue-Shaie continues the Akaviri rule over Tamriel.

2E 430

The latest ruler of Second Empire, Potentate Savirien-Chorak, and every one of his heirs is murdered by The Dark Brotherhood/Morag Tong. This marks the end of the Second Empire.
Source: Pocket Guide to the Empire (1st Edition): Cyrodiil, The Brothers of Darkness.

Immortal Vampire Snakemen.

the timeline does show that the potentate did live for a long time beyond normal human years, though no real details whether this immortality or something else. nor is there anything about vampire snakemen.

Reman I grants the tsaesci amnesty and integrates their military prowess into the imperial military, and the tsaesci integrate into the royal courts.

again, what's with the immortal vampire snakemen comments? just a catchphrase/meme now regarding tsaesci, or is there more to source?

» Fri May 13, 2011 1:36 pm

this seems to provide a plausable explination, http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/adanorcilarticle2.shtml

» Fri May 13, 2011 1:41 pm

You were betting that the Tseasci were just man.

I don't believe you mentioned them but the arguments for this are:

Akaviri surnames
Akaviri facial traits
Akaviri soldiers

The main sources for the Tseasci being variously immortal, vampiric and serpents are:

2920, The Last Year of the First Era
Carlovac Townways reply in Interview With Three Writers
Mysterious Akavir
The Timeline
The Remanada
http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?act=Search&CODE=show&searchid=88798fb71e7b4d8a485160378c047698&search_in=posts&result_type=posts
Tseasci Creation Myth

Now this could be done with arguments, sources, authors intent and developer confirmation but that has been done before and I'm sure a couple of well aimed search terms can pull it all up.

Or rather you could suspend your disbelieve for a moment and do away with the preconceived notion that the Tseasci are not Immortal-Vampire-Snakeman. After all, other then that, there is no reason to refute the previously mentioned sources in the first place.

» Fri May 13, 2011 11:23 am

*Sigh*

And here I was hoping that my ominous little "milkshake" comment, combined with the chorus of "IMMORTAL. VAMPIRE. SNAKEMEN" would drown out all opposition and create a resounding victory.

Look, the Tsaesci are Immortal Vampire Snakemen because, if they weren't, then it would be boring and, therefore, wrong. In most in-universe fiction containing the Tsaesci, they are described as having serpentine features or, most explicitly in http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/2920.shtml, of being mostly serpents.

Of course, there is the argument that this is a creative metaphor in order to describe their innate "coldness" or creepiness. Fine. Here's something: what is metaphor in a world where symbolism becomes reality, and mythopoeia replaces the natural law?

At the very least, it's malleable; that is to say, there are a whole variety of excuses that you can make about the Tsaesci and the extent of their serpentine and vampiric nature if you http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/tsaesci.shtml and think about it in the context of TES metaphysics as a whole.

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=847495&st=20&p=12368651&#entry12368651 is my personal favorite -- mostly, though, I'm biased. After all, I wrote it.

So, to make a long story short:

IMMORTAL. VAMPIRE. SNAKEMEN.

And that's final.