Tsaesci in Skyrim : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Sat May 14, 2011 9:25 am

I really hope we see the snake-men... but I hope they actually make them men with a snake "tail" as legs... and "vampire snakes" could just be a reference to the fact that they're immortal, eat humans, and are half snakes... I hope they don't drink blood but instead open they mouth into a black pit and swollow whomever they kill... and of course have their entire body (head to) covered in golden scales...

» Sat May 14, 2011 4:52 am

I highly doubt the snake Talos killing is a Tsaesci. I don't think that they are that snake-like. Of course, it might be some metaphora, but did Talos actually fight Tsaesci?

And I've read in some book I don't recall now that Tsaesci and men descend from one proto-human race. And can you imagine a snake like that ruling people for a few hundred years?

» Sat May 14, 2011 2:05 pm

There's a piece of concept art showing the same shrine, and it's labeled as "Shrine of Talos" or something to that effect, so I don't see any doubt that it's a shrine of Talos, on the other hand, there's absolutely no indication that the snake on it is supposed to be a Tsaesci, since we've never seen them before and don't know what they look like. What little lore we have on them identifies them as snake people, but that does not automatically mean that anything that looks like a snake is automatically a Tsaesci, and in fact I highly doubt that snake is a Tsaesci, or if it's meant to represent them, it's not a literal indication of what they look like, because it is in no way humanoid and does not even have any arms, which is pretty impractical for an intelligent race commonly attributed to have provided the origins of things like katanas, which would be hard to use without arms, I think, unless all Tsaesci are telekinetic.

In any case, I'm guessing that if Akaviri races were to play any important part in Skyrim, we'd have heard of it by now, that doesn't mean we can't have a few quests or locations where Akavir-related things play some degree of role, I mean, I don't recall hearing that we'd see a quest where we had to go to a fort once occupied by Akaviri invaders to retrieve an Akaviri amulet in Oblivion, but we got it anyway. However, I think having Akaviri races playing any sort of important role in the game would be something Bethesda would feel is worth mentioning.

Well it could very well be a metaphor or they could be young Tsaesci or a form that the Tsaesci can take. We know that they hate a humanoid enough form to rule over the empire for centuries but what exactly they could do or what their young looked like we don't know. The thing is that we have seen these snake like beings that look like that would be parasitic (vampiric) and one of them was being killed by Talos, which doesn't match up to the time line but it could just be metaphorical to show Talos as such a great hero killing a great enemy of Skyrim even if he never fought one (or maybe he did and like I said, some Tsaesci could've held out in Skyrim.)

But mainly, I'm not saying Akavir will have a part in attacking Skyrim, just that some Tsaesci could have been left behind or that worm/snake thing could be some really dangerous creature we have never seen before. We of course just won't know and this is just a speculation thread of course :biggrin:

Don't expect fans to be capable of grasping that. If they see anything that isn't EXACTLY like how they imagined it to be, it's automatically "not accurate", which makes absolutely no sense when you consider that the "not accurate" lore comes from the people who create the lore, and therefore define what is and is not lore correct, and thus it cannot be inaccurate unless the creators actually recognize it as non-canon, which they clearly don't (Yes, I know that the elitist fans here hate to admit it, but it's the creators of a setting who decide what is and isn't correct in the lore, not the fans, but I know that's extremely difficult for some people to grasp.) never mind that the original account which what we're shown is percieved to contradict is both old, vague, and from the source of an in-game book which may not be completely accurate to begin with.

I'm okay with people interpreting things only if it says it exactly because eventually it will come to light if it's right or not in one of the games but what gets me is when people interpret things in the lore that aren't actually there. Every time I see someone do that I remember the South Park episode where Butters wrote the book "The poop that made a pee" and it was just a random assortment of what Butters thought were bad words and then those that read it saw it as some deep metaphor on life and so on

» Sat May 14, 2011 3:42 pm

The Tsaesci were only around during Reman's reign and 400 years after. Tiber Septim didn't come to power till near the end of the 2nd era, which is ~400 years after the last Potentate was assassinated.

» Sat May 14, 2011 1:22 pm

Why can't the Tsaesci have different forms like the Khajiit or Argonians? Aren't there fairly diverse "sub-species" within the beast races?

» Sat May 14, 2011 2:26 am

The Tsaesci were only around during Reman's reign and 400 years after. Tiber Septim didn't come to power till near the end of the 2nd era, which is ~400 years after the last Potentate was assassinated.

True, but as was mentioned earlier, it could just be just a dramatization by the creators of the shrine to encapsulate the legend of Talos into the defeat of a great enemy of Skyrim, the Tsaesci that invaded centuries before his time. Also, it could just be some snake/worm thing that we have never seen before and it's extremely dangerous but it just looks like a vampiric snake and it could be a form that Tsaesci take when they attack or it could be a Tsaesci young or some other thing. We just don't know but this is a speculation thread so let's speculate :tongue:

» Sat May 14, 2011 3:11 am

Could it be a statue of Wulfharth/Shor (Talos, known as Ysmir to the Nords) defeating Alduin, but with Alduin being depicted as a snake instead of a dragon?

» Sat May 14, 2011 10:55 am

Oof. I'd love to see things from Akavir finally show up in Tamriel. It'd be sweet.

agreed

» Sat May 14, 2011 12:38 pm

The Tsaesci were only around during Reman's reign and 400 years after. Tiber Septim didn't come to power till near the end of the 2nd era, which is ~400 years after the last Potentate was assassinated.

But after the last Potentate was assassinated the Tsaesci found asylum in Rimmen and according to PGEI they still lived there during reign of Tiber Septim and it is possible, that they still live there - the leader of Rimmen is still called Potentate (see Infernal City).

» Sat May 14, 2011 3:39 am

What I don't get is the Akaviri Commander, Mishaxhi and the Skeletons looked to be quite human. Yet in a book it says that the Men were all "eaten" long ago. So were they "eaten" after the invasion or am I missing something here?

This is why I don't want to see any references to the Akaviri, at all, in Skyrim. Beth already butchered the lore with their references in Oblivion - degrading the Akaviri into some sort of Tamrielic samurais (and don't pretend for a second that that wasn't just so that they had an excuse to get katanas and vaguely oriental armor into the game as a bit of fan service) and I really don't want to see them butcher it even more.

» Sat May 14, 2011 4:15 am

Its Talos guys, not Tiber Septim. He slays his mythical other, Alduin, not Tamriel's physical other, the Tsaesci.

Personally, no, I wouldn't want to see Tsaesci in Skyrim if they aren't a major plot point. We already know based on Oblivion that they won't devote resources to them, and I'd rather not see them at all than see them done poorly.

» Sat May 14, 2011 9:47 am

Yeah, its definitely labeled Talos's shrine, but the snake cape could easily be a reference to the Yokudan creation story.
This shrine could easily be on the border to Hammerfell.

I'd prefer to keep Akavir and its races relatively unknown and mysterious.

» Sat May 14, 2011 7:14 am

I'm wondering if the Akaviri invaders were actually human, and it's just fantastic racism by Cyrodiilic historians that led to them being remembered as 'snake-people', or possibly that it was just a metaphor that was misinterpreted, maybe some Reman-era text describing them as 'snake-like' got all twisted around in translation to be read as 'bipedal snake vampires' . Who knows. But I'm sure that the somehow-Imperial Akaviri ghosts at Pale Pass was just an oversight/laziness.

However, I'm certain that the serpent being trampled underfoot on the Talos shrine is supposed to Alduin. It's a nearly universal motif in art, the ol' Deity-crushing-the-primeval-serpent scheme. It's supposed to represent the triumph of man's higher faculties over his baser impulses, human civilization surmounting the natural chaos (as in 'the original condition, the void', not necessarily 'disorder') to reign over all things.

Some examples:

Sumerian/Babylonian (http://academic.shu.edu/honors/Marduks_strid_med_Tiamat.jpg)

Slavic (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Zmey.jpg/250px-Zmey.jpg)

Japanese (http://images.wikia.com/okami/images/e/e9/Kuniteru_Gozu_dragon.jpg)

Greek (http://www.laits.utexas.edu/moore/sites/laits.utexas.edu.moore/files/images/9812110018_1024.preview.jpg)

Christian (http://douglawrence.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/womanserpent.jpg?w=296&h=548)

Now, given that Talos is supposed to be the realization of Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr - the god of all human undertakings - it stands to reason that he would be thematically opposed to Auriel/Alduin, and that the statuary would reflect this.

» Sat May 14, 2011 8:32 am

I'm thinking there will be a lot of Akavir references within Skyrim, talking about the Akaviri invasion that tore through Skyrim. The reason I say this is because of http://cdnstatic.gamesas.com/akqacms/files/tes/screenshots/KhajiitTemple.jpg and http://cdnstatic.gamesas.com/akqacms/files/tes/screenshots/IceWraiths_wLegal.jpg. The Ice Wraiths seem to look like possible Tsaesci spirits and in the Shrine of Talos, Talos was posing to stab a possible Tsaesci.

That's just my thoughts that we might have several quests that are in reference to the Akaviri Invasion and possibly we might stumble upon some hidden ruins that are full of Tsaesci that were caught behind and are in hiding, that would be interesting if there has been Tsaesci hiding Skyrim for millenia.

Thats a shrine to talos?

» Sat May 14, 2011 12:41 am

I always pictured the Tsaesci as being more human-sized, if not bigger. The Ice Wraiths and Serpant in the Statue look a bit too small. I would like some Akaviri references in Skyrim, hopefully more than just a Temple on a hill too. :facepalm:

» Sat May 14, 2011 12:20 pm

Personally, keep Akavir out of Tamriel and leave it as the mysterious eastern nation. Same with the southern continent, home of the Maormer.

Only if the setting or plot demands it. If a game were based in Summerset Isle, then setting up a Maormer attack or pressure or something would be interesting... if handled correctly. It'd provide a nice counter balance philosophy from the "this is the true path" Altmer while still being an Elvish perspective. In other words, it'd cast doubt on their culture.

» Sat May 14, 2011 1:48 pm

Only if the setting or plot demands it. If a game were based in Summerset Isle, then setting up a Maormer attack or pressure or something would be interesting... if handled correctly. It'd provide a nice counter balance philosophy from the "this is the true path" Altmer while still being an Elvish perspective. In other words, it'd cast doubt on their culture.

Okay, that's the one exception with the Maormer.

» Sat May 14, 2011 5:02 pm

Okay, that's the one exception with the Maormer.

I would love to see the Maormer, myself. They sound awesome.

» Sat May 14, 2011 9:06 am

Ice Wraits as dead Tsaesci? I like it.

I like it a lot.

» Sat May 14, 2011 1:52 am

Ice Wraits as dead Tsaesci?

I'd prefer it if they were rogue thu'um-shouts myself.

» Sat May 14, 2011 3:42 pm

I'd prefer it if they were rogue thu'um-shouts myself.

Rogue thu'um shouts? So....someone's voice turned on itself? That's silly.

» Sat May 14, 2011 12:34 pm

Rogue thu'um shouts? So....someone's voice turned on itself? That's silly.

What, never been betrayed by your own voice (and never felt like you wanted to beat the living snot out of it because of that)?

» Sat May 14, 2011 12:48 pm

What, never been betrayed by you own voice (and never felt like you wanted to beat the living snot out of it because of that)?

.
They are what happens when your voice cracks performing thu'um

» Sat May 14, 2011 11:42 am

Why has no one brought up whether the ice wraiths could be Kamal (Snow Demons) from Akavir? The Kamal have invaded before, they were defeated by Almalexia and the Underking in a battle at Red Mountain. The Kamal actually attacked Windhelm in Skyrim.

There must be some Akavir influence in TES:V, the http://images.uesp.net//6/6b/SR-icon-logo.jpgitself is a reference to Akavir, no?

It would be cool to find out the Ka Po' Tun had defeated the Tsaesci and moved on to Tamriel as they have been planning to do for a while.

What if the Tsaesci actually form an alliance with Tamriel to defeat the dragons?

How far away would you say Akavir is from Tamriel if it took 6 weeks by ship (in fair weather) to reach land?

A pretty BIG indication of Tsaesci being humanoids comes from the Ionith book, describing the Emperor's scouts being shadowed by enemy patrols riding mounts. I would think that a difficult if they had snakelike lower bodies.

In the Story of Lysirius, Akavir chariots are mentioned... either it is the chariot we are all familiar with, which means they are more humanoid than snake. It means the source is incorrect or is describing something that ISN'T a chariot. And a hypothesis might be, that the Tsaesci ARE HUMANS, but in fact ride snakes as mounts. Thus giving the illusion that they have snake lower bodies, eh?

The Lysirius story also mentioned how a dragon was tricked into helping the hero defeat the Akavir forces. Perhaps the Dragonborn must awake this dragon (which the story maintains might still be around Tamriel) to defeat a greater conflict with an invading force.

Another question. The Tscaesci potentate is well known in Tamriel, but were their comrades back in Akavir aware that one of their own had become a ruling force in Tamriel?

» Sat May 14, 2011 12:58 pm

A pretty BIG indication of Tsaesci being humanoids comes from the Ionith book, describing the Emperor's scouts being shadowed by enemy patrols riding mounts. I would think that a difficult if they had snakelike lower bodies.

In the Story of Lysirius, Akavir chariots are mentioned... either it is the chariot we are all familiar with, which means they are more humanoid than snake. It means the source is incorrect or is describing something that ISN'T a chariot. And a hypothesis might be, that the Tsaesci ARE HUMANS, but in fact ride snakes as mounts. Thus giving the illusion that they have snake lower bodies, eh?

I always imagined the Tsaesci to look like the picture of one in the Tamriel Rebuilt concept art.

http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/forum/files/akaviri_162.png