Yosh, so I've been wondering about Tunnelers for a while right, and when I finally got to kill one and look at it's body it raised even more questions.


And uhm... does anyone have any explanation for them?
Cause uhm... I think I do, and you're not gonna like it.

I think they're mutated Reptilians.

What is a Reptilian? Search google for images on "Reptilian Alien".
Here is the wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilians

Why would I say such a thing? We know aliens are just easter eggs because Bethesda did such a horrible job with MZ right?
Well, this isn't human: http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/073/d/e/tunneler_body_by_gabriel77cortez-d4sq9d9.jpg

Now let's review past human mutants.
We have ghouls, how are their artistic design? They're humans, but rotting.
Pretty feasible right.
Well, Super Mutants? They are humans who turned green from the FEV and gained extreme muscle mass.
Feasible.
Trogs from The Pitt? They became very primal, lost their hair, they probably still have genitals despite Bethesdsa not wanting to show them, and they started running on all four.

Right.
We have ghosts which are humans that become one with those special suits.
We have Spore Carriers which are mutated fungus reanimating the dead and taking over the body.

Even the most ridiculous things can sort of be feasible.

But Tunnelers?
Why I say they are mutated Reptilians is because of this: http://gabriel77cortez.deviantart.com/art/Tunneler-body-290119149

A: Look at that head, does it look human, or Grey/Reptilian? Look at the eyes, look at the mouth.
B: Only 4 fingers, and I don't think one is a thumb.
C: Only 4 toes.
D: The most absurd thing of them all is this: Why do they have scales?

Now all of the other mutants have had understandable mutations.
Ghouls didn't get horns, they are in a constant rotting and regenerating state, but they didn't mutate something that isn't from their species.
Super Mutants didn't get a tail (despite that "could" work), no their muscle mass starting expanding and they turned green just like eating tons of carrots will turn you yellow.
Pitt Trogs didn't get wings, they lost all their hair and changed their stance into a primal position.
And Spore Carriers, they aren't human really.

And neither are Tunnelers.

The only feasible explanation I can think of is that these are Reptilians, maybe they crashed on earh, maybe they've always been there underground, maybe they were caputered by the army and kept around The Divide and have since been mutating underground.

But I don't think that Tunnelers are human, apart from the humanoid features (which Reptilians share) I find more things linking them to Reptilians than I do humans.

Thoughts?




[edit]


I suppose that one can always pull the cheap argument of "Well maybe they were an experiement by the US to create super soldiers" or "Well maybe they are mutants created by the government to act like Deathclaws and Molerats", and yeah, it could work, but what facts or even minor hints do we have towards this?

I can at least point towards the Reptilians and say "that".


And please leave any alien hate outside of this thread, I don't want to hear a bunch of whining about MZ or how Bethesda handled aliens.


This I mean especially for the Dinosaurs. No alien hatred, this is a thread for discussing about what Tunnelers are, not to whine about MZ again.

My guess is the are just mutated reptiles, not reptilians. Maybe chameleons or anything similar. This would even explain those 4 fingers.
They are walking on 2 feet, just like mirelurks do and they were crabs: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Mirelurks


EDIT:
If your definition of reptilian is a mutated reptile, looking humanoid now, then yes I agree. But the wiki has several other explanations.

Hmmm.

Gecko's....
Deathclaws...
Lakelurks...

Wait... Does all reptiles mutate into humanoids?

I don't know, I'm not responsible for the writing.

I f*cking hate aliens!


Seriously though, I think they should've used less the "humanoid-esque" bi-ped approach with some of the critters (geckos aren't really all that "humanoid" in their mutation, some of those lizards can run with their backlegs) and figure out mutations that look more natural to the species. Just a general comment.

Well, the Tunnelers aren't lizards.
They have belly buttons, lizards hatch from eggs as far as I know.
They also have a similarity to human torso with the briasts.
Oh and I checked their hands again, they do have thumbs actually.


So no, they're not lizards.

Deathclaws didn't mutate from lizards by themselves. They were made by scientists in a lab inorder to make a weapon of War.

My guess is that the Tunnelers are a long lost science project that was in a lab deep underground. Maybe the pre-war scientists didn't think mole rats were a big enough threat to crops and underground infrastructure.

But do we have any shred of evidence towards that?

Not that I have much myself, I just compared them to Reptilians.
Still, it's more than complete speculation.


The wikia said this: "Tunnelers were the pre-War inhabitants of http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Hopeville who took refuge underground during the Great War. [1]"


The [1] said dialogue with Ulysses, I don't specifically remember him sayin this, could someone check out what dialogue that is? Cause I ain't gonna start LSR just yet.

We know that scientists were making animal weapons of war such as Deathclaws. We know that they used people as well to make Robot Brains (Big Mountain). We know they had no problem messing with people in Vaults. So I don't think its a far stretch to think that Tunnelers are some long lost science project to make a weapon of war. Tunnelers could be humans spliced with animal DNA. They got trapped underground. Being made for underground life, they thrived.

As Ulysses said, they lived underground for a long time, not knowing of the world above. Since they are only found in that area, a long lost lab could be the reason.

They wiki says they were inhabitants of Hopeville who took refugee underground during the war. So they were human.

Considering that the human foetus has very rudimental gills for a very short amount of time, evolution paired with radiation could have went this way. Basically evolution is fast forwarded during pregnancy, running through "primal" stages and a little bit of those old genes, going back to the bacteria stage of live, are still in our DNA.

It doesn't seem likely to me, but it is still a possibility. They were humans before the war. This would explain the belly buttons and the thumbs. I still like the reptile approach better though...

But we don't find any labs or journals or terminals that give the slightest hint towards this.
They didn't make this mistake with the Spore Carriers or Night Stalkers or Ghosts.
If they were indeed experiments I think Obsidian would have mentioned that in some form.
Tunnelers are just... Kinda there out of the blue.

(On a sidenote: The All-American is found in Vault 34 right? Why does it have "Airbourne" pained on the side if it was a weapon delivered to a vault?)



[edit]

ManInTheMirror, well why do they have scales?
Mutation is one thing but it's only been 200 years, that's a bit excessive mutation in such a short period of time to develop naturally.


[edit]

(I'm not going to ignore any other suggestions as to what they might be just cause I like mine a bit more, but when looking at the New Vegas design they didn't have a problem with giving us hints or detailed explanations to the other mutations so if it was an experiement it seems kinda... Weird, for Obsidian not to explain it. I also doubt that this kind of mutation can happen "naturally" like the original Van Buren Trogs or Ghouls as it is simply too excessive.)

Well the Divide is a very destroyed place. Alot of what was once there could have easily been lost and never found again. Could have been a lab complex completely lost. Yeah it svcks the devs didn't leave a note but do they really need to do that with ever new creature we come across?

Seems kinda pointless. Given that we had "Old World Blues" before that, that clearly explained and showed scientists messing with DNA and splicing humans and other animals, even with robots. To show another lab in Lonesome Road is kinda redundant.

They never full explained Ghost People. Just that it had something to do with Big Mountain. So why do they need to fully explain Tunnelers?

That's why I talked about the gills, it isn't a big jump from gills to scales. 200 years is really a short time, considering they were human this would only be 10 generations. Even paired with radiation this a long way to go.
I also have to admit that the mirelurk evolution doesn't make sense either. Well they breed faster but once they gain that size it would take them longer the mature, therefore generation gaps become larger. So the change from eight feet to two feet and walking on two feet can't be done in such a short time too.

In the end the mutation rate in the fallout universe isn't realistic at all, even with radiation. Considering this I accept these weak explanations, so tunnelers were once human.


I have to agree with you on the ghoul and super mutant argument, they are feasible, but so many other mutations in fallout are not. Tunnelers only being one of them.

Becoming a trog is a pretty extreme mutation caused by unique chemicals. Beastlord psychic ability is extreme caused by unique environment. So Tunnelers could also be an extreme mutation causd by something unique at the Divide.

you nailed it right just look at the marked men in the divide they are diffrent than other ghouls tunnelers are the divides trogs i guess lol

They probably would have, but development time probably restricted them being able to do much about them, so just didn't bother? Lonesome Road was the last DLC after all, and Bethesda probably told them to just get it done and over with.


All-American is reference to the 82nd Airborne Division (paratroopers). Their nickname is All-American, and is why they have the 82nd emblem on the side. The gun was probably brought by a paratrooper, who was apart of the 82nd Airborne?


*Looks at what I said above*

Could be. Means we have to speculate though. And quite frankly adding in a note next to a skeleton from a scientist who had been involved with the experiments would have taken 10 minutes tops.

Hell, I could probably add it in right now and I'm just a really lazy modder.

Perhaps they were part of a really, really messed up Vault experiment?

I know it's unlikely but Vaults are underground and (as of F3) some are science experiments instead of social experiments.

If they're from a vault that means there could be thousands of them! They could be all over the underground US and we have only discovered them in the Divide.

I think the inhabitants of Hopevill that took shelter underground during the Great War just began to take out sixual fantasies/frustration on poor reptiles that dwelled in the caves, that along with radiation and voila - you've got reptilian offspring!

Bethesda probably cut this... I think I found my new favorite suggestion. :V

It makes so little sense it makes perfect.

In fallout there is SCIENCE, though I am not a fan of it, it still remains in the game. Basically it means that a lot of the science in the game is based off of how the 1950's viewed it. That is why there are ghouls and giant animals.

And mutations by radiation are not the same as those by evolution plus it is a 1950's understanding of radiation mutations. With that in mind I think most of the tunneler is explained besides the scales, they could easily lose or gain fingers, in this case lose, and living underground caused their eyes to turn giant. The scales are just out of place, should have just made them dark skinned.

I've always been of the mindset that the Tunnelers are the mutated forms of the Hopeville/Ashton survivors who'd fled underground, or the descendants, seeing as Tunnelers 'breed rapidly'.

Why the tough scaley skin? Humans by nature aren't meant to be living underground in the environments like they do.
Why the claws? the Tunnelers live underground, and species tend to adapt to their biome with each passing generation.
why the glowing tips? *Shrugs* Light underground? Cats can see in low light conditions, but underground in zero light, you can't adapt to what isnt there.

I feel this is further prooved when a Tunneler is killed, when killed most of them possess a trivial piece of Pre-War junk most of the time, much akin to Feral Ghouls.

There was message in the divide that talked about anti war protesters that the commander had a surprise for. I believe the tunnelers are the result of testing on these antiwar protesters.

There was also a interesting theory about the tunnelers being children that the military experimented on. This would explain why teddy bears were often found on the corpse and why there were alot of teddy bears found in there lairs.

I personally think it was the anti-war protesters being tested on.

I remember watching some documentary science thingie a long time ago, my memory is fuzzy of it but basically, why insects are able mutate and evolve more quickly is because their lifespans are shorter, so that with each generation it's a notch towards something different.
And that is why mammals evolve slower.

Like I said, my memory is fuzzy.
But yes, mutations in Fallout doesn't need generational breeding.
But the Tunneler mutation is far too excessive to be a normal mutation (Ghouls, Trogs) and it's hardly been enough time for generational breeding to heavily alter them.
I just don't think that they magically mutated into such excessive proportions within 200 years.
I mean, they mutated parts of the body into something that isn't even from our species.
It's too much to be natural mutation or natural generational breeding.