who says the empire kept peace? Who says there even was peace? Of course the nords were "peaceful" They were now part of Tamriel's army. They had other wars to fight in. That's the only reason they stopped fighting each other.

I think your on to something here.

Which tells you what? It tells me that the Empire kept the Nords controlled by giving them something to fight other than each other. How long after Ulfric's death do you think the Nords can keep it together, and not kill each other?

In the end, there are practical problems that Ulfric might not have considered will result from his war for independence.

The only wrong I see is the Thalmor, and that's it. At least everyone can agree to that

As for never knowing, that all depends on the next game. I'll be very shocked if Bethesda simply sweep this all under the rug... and kinda disappointed

Both sides have their equal faults, rights and wrongs, hence why I never choose a side. Even when trying to role play a character that would pick a side, I find it hard to do so though the funny thing is on my main character, for some reason the Stormcloaks have begun to attack him despite being neutral... that's not exactly helping their image lol.

I think perhaps one of the biggest misconceptions on both sides is that Nords = Stormcloaks.

I'm not accusing you or anyone here of it, necessarily, but I'm observing that it seems to be a rather common misconception.

The thing is... And I think this is the biggest issue here.

Stormcloaks win = Thalmor kicked out of Skyrim, religious freedoms restored and yes, peace to Skyrim. The new government of Skyrim WILL go to war with the empire against the thalmor when the time is right. The thalmor are NOT going to march on Skyrim unless they are ready to take the whole empire. Why? Because even the empire isn't foolish enough to stand by and let them. That puts the thalmor RIGHT in the door to taking Cyrodiil

Empire(imperials) win = NOTHING changes. Religious rights still trampled. Thalmor still running amuck doing what ever they damn well please. The people of Skyrim still being kidnapped, tortured, killed. Oh but the empire gets to keep Skyrim.

The only way I could find it favorable for the empire to remain in control of Skyrim and stamp out the rebellion was if they took their balls out of their purse and corrected the every issues that cause the people of Skyrim to rally behind Ulfric's banner in the first place. WHICH they don't do...

I hope that once you read my PM you will kind of understand the Empire's saddening situation, and see that there is the possibility for change.

And also having to deal with food shortages for the thousands of people in Skyrim, potential for war among the holds, risk of being invaded by other provinces besides the Thalmor ones. Then there is the problem of whether or not the Nord will EVEN be able to go to war with the Dominion, and when the next great war happens.

Trade some problems for others is all it is.

I have and it was very thought provoking

What food shortages? Last I checked Skyrim had a lot of farms. The holds will NOT fight each other. They are rallied under Ulfric Stormcloak with Jarls he trusts in charge. The holds are united. What other provinces would attack Skyrim? And why couldn't the nords go to war along side the empire in the next great war?

Skyrim has a lot of farms, true, but Skyrim also has a lot of people (the game is not lore-correct on the populations), not to mention IF the nords get involved in the next great war, which will send the food from the farms to the military efforts. the second the part is long term, meaning that sooner or later the holds WILL end up fighting each other (unless Ulfric finds some sort of spell of immortality), because Ulfric will not live forever, and neither will the people who supported him for their positions. Skyrim would have to rebuild, train and arm their military, which will take time, leaving them open to potential threats. The last part depends on IF the next great war happens before the Nords are ready, leaving them out for a while.

Not saying you are wrong, but I was talking more long term, future issues that are better off never being issues ever.

Damn, I'm curious

Here it is although some of it may be out of context due to it being only my side of the messages and two different ones as well.

Exactly why I brought up the Gothic Wars. They were essentially started because the Goths felt abandoned by their saviors the Romans.

Now the Empire has one of two things they can do in this scenario:

1. Attempt a treaty of peace between the Empire and the Storm-Cloaks. This would upset the Thalmor for they were the ones behind the whole idea of persecuting Skyrim, I believe it may have something to do with the Great War and the whole Elven/Nord tension that seems to run deep in both parties. Now if the Thalmor get upset and reignite hostilities with the Empire they are done for, except for this time they won't be allowed to surrender. Even with a treaty with Ulfric this is not enough for the Empire to turn around and punch the Thalmor in the face.

They way I see it is the Thalmor essentially have a gun to the Empires head. If the Empire does as their told the Thalmor let them live, but if the Empire tries to stand against them they will go back to war. A war mind you that the Empire could not win with a full military force, and now they barely have that because the Thalmor will not let them rebuild their military. For if they rebuild their military they can attempt to take out the Thalmor. So the Thalmor are controlling the Empire with the intention of tearing apart everything the Empire has left by making them look like a weak puppet state, and the Empire can't do anything about this because it would mean the end of themselves and everyone else.

2. The Empire can go to war against Ulfric eliminating the issue and doing what the Thalmor want them to do. Of course the Empire does not want to do this, they have no quarrel with Skyrim. But it comes back to if they do not do what they are told to do by the Thalmor they themselves will be destroyed. It is a very complex battle of survival that honestly the Empire has very little say in.

I see the Thalmor as a parasite, if you let them attach themselves to you, they will control you turning your body against you and if left untreated killing you. But if you try and wrench it out you may very well kill yourself in the process. So it is best if it never attaches itself in the first place, unfortunately a great nation is doomed to die a terrible death unless they are helped by other nations that see the real enemy is the Thalmor and the Empire is helplessly controlled by them.

So the Thalmor is attached to the Empire so they are not a threat to anyone else at the moment. But if the Empire dies then the Thalmor will move on to the next host repeating the cycle until no one opposes them. The Empire was the strongest military power in the world but now they are not. It would take everyone to kill the Thalmor, that is why the Empire is trying to hold out and keep them stuck in a political limbo. Giving other nations a chance to build up and take the fight back to the Thalmor giving the Empire room to breathe so they can help as well. If the Empire is destroyed the Thalmor no longer have a reason to stay in one place and deal with one entity they can then move onto the next one so to speak.

I'm more than willing to fall upon my sword for my Legion. But alas my head hurts to much from this thread already.......

Thank you for sharing. That is exaaaactly how I feel about all this as well. Hence why even though I would like to side with the Empire and kick some ass, I do not wish to do so if the ass I am kicking is not the Thalmors... I do not want to kill the sons and daughters of Skyrim, because they are not the true enemy.

Thing is though, the Empire is planning to go to war with the Dominion too. If the Empire wins, it'll end up going to war with the Thalmor even without Ulfric and Galmar to start things up.

Skyrim also has its own source of wealth. Silver Mines.

General Tullius himself sent Margaret to Markarth to get the deed to the mine from the Silver-Bloods for the empire. The Silver-Bloods retaliate by getting Nepos the Nose to hire the forsworn assassin. So Skyrim can pretty much export silver for anything they might happen to need. Its not like with the empire no longer in control, all trade import and export will end.

And that's the thing. Ulfric and Galmar have NO interest in going to war with the thalmor any time soon and not with an army beside them of other provinces and the empire. You'd know this by talking to Ulfric after the war. He knows things are only just beginning and with the empire's grip removed turns his attention to bolstering the ranks of the army, strengthening the borders. He thought of all this.

We do not know anything. Whether or not they will trade or anything is not about silver, but necessity. If the Empire needs the food for their armies, there will not be any for the Nords to buy from the EEC. There are also the other issues that you failed to mention.

Being with the Empire=easier time getting food from the farms outside of skyrim, so they can spend their silver in other places, like military training and weapons.

I don't see the difference between an independent Skyrim marching beside the empire. Or under the empire's banner as changing any of the methods at which they are going to get food. Ulfric knows a war is coming. Ulfric knows to prepare. You think he hasn't thought about food? I'm sure he has. And Skyrim will stock pile as much grain and what ever else it needs as it can.

And without the thalmor in Skyrim thanks to them being kicked out along with the empire, Skyrim can build its armies without the thalmor watching them

And where will that food go? likely to the soldiers, and not the people, who will need it more. Same with outside food sources. IF war breaks out, that food will need to go to the people fighting for those nations/provinces. Likely the people will starve long before the war ends.

I doubt this very much. The people will have resources and means to survive while the men and women are off to war. If it was so bleak as you suggest then my god. how did any one survive the wars that have swept across this earth since the dawn of time? And its not like people in the empire controlled lands are going to be swimming in milk and honey while their men are at war.

if your saying an independent Skyrim will starve to death when its army goes to war. Then so will everyone else in every other province that unites against the thalmor.

There is more to it than that. You are too blind to the true possibilities. Likely Tamriel was not as populated as it is right now, meaning they did not need as much food. Today, more people=more food needed, and less food to go around=less people being fed=less survival in the war.

First off we don't even know when the next war will be. It could be years from now. So much could be established by then. Alliances, trade agreements. Warehouses overflowing with supplies. Hell.. Ulfric might not even see it having died of old age. We don't know.

so honestly I don't see the point your trying to make.

point in bold. These issues have to be taken down BEFORE they become an issue, like AS SOON AS skyrim becomes independent, they have to solve these issues to save themselves in the long run.

T best way to solves these issues is to remain a part of the empire, which solves all these issues NOW, rather than letting their emotions run their choices for them.

and where is your proof that these steps are not going to be taken? That Skyrim isn't going to prepare. Its not like war is something new to these nords. They know it better then most.

Where is your proof they are? They are not being talked about, and even if they are, one cannot plan for the future in one night. Best to ensure that those problems are never even possible by staying with the group that already solves them. how hard is it for people to understand that.

All the real issues which can cause major issues in the long run are taken care of in the empire in exchange for a temporary one being around.

An army cannot fight on an empty stomach. IF war breaks out, the food NEEDS to go to the soldiers, not the citizens, this is a fact. Cut off the food, you kill any resistance.

I'm speaking from experience here but at its peak the Ancient Roman Republic had 120 million citizens, and 700,000 military personnel. I wasn't there but I'm pretty sure the people can't starve to death when they far out number the people they're feeding. Of course there is a difference between Rome and Skyrim but there is no way that Skyrim has a larger population then the Rome had and there is no way the military outnumbers the people. So running out of food is not an issue I see coming up at any point in time.