I like and dislike both sides equally, so I try to stay neutral. Though sometimes that's made difficult due to the oppressive and racist atmosphere that Windhelm radiates. Not to mention, how is a man that throws a hissy fit during a diplomatic meeting about the fate of Nirn going to gain the support of powerful allies... urgh, Ulfric looked like such a bloody ass during that part of the quest.

The factions in this game remind me of the factions in FO:NV... so much doublethink... screw your factions, I'ma make my own

The civil war is largely irrelevant in the long term. Either way, Skyrim, the empire and possibly the other provinces will still fight against the Thalmor in the inevitable second war.

I have more important things to worry about, like those dragons that are threatening to destroy the world or that fruitcake in the dress named Miraak.

Exactly, if Ulfric wants to gain independence let him do it himself instead of having the Dovah do everything. I have better things to do than listen to a man-child throwing tantrums.

Oh boy...here we go again...

Despite usually prefering to stay out of Civil War arguments, I never liked that ''the Empire is keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim'' argument.

I mean, in the game, I can literally walk past their embassy if I want to.

Personally, I sympathize much more with the Stormcloaks. I very much admit that I've chosen this side by intuition. Some people might say that this isn't the wise way to choose, but oh well.

He was doing it long before the Dovah ever came onto the scene. TBH, this isn't a very convincing argument against Ufric.

exactly. Ulfric had everything all planned out before the dragonborn came along.

The comment that Ulfric used the dragonborn and wouldn't have succeeded otherwise is groundless. After all what does that say of Tullius? He clearly used the dragonborn to the same extent as Ulfric did. So how does that make Ulfric a tantrum throwing man-child?

You're casually forgetting that Ulfric was captured twice, one of those time by Tullius, if it was not for Alduin, Ulfric would have been executed, what a wonderful planning right there!

Ulfric being a man child? Seasons unending, he acts nothing more than a brat that can't have his way.

Little did you know but Ulfric heard the Empire was giving free hair cuts that is why he got captured.

I wonder what you would do if you were in his shoes having shared his experiences.

Oh and he wasn't captured twice. only once. first time he was pretty much handed over to the thalmor by the empire that failed to keep its word and didn't want to offend the altmer dominion. second time was simply because Tullius went into the Rift, slaughtered the Riften guard near Darkwater Crossing and captured him. Don't believe me? check the watch tower in the rift with the dead guards and read the note warning them of a strong imperial presence and then tell me I'm wrong. As for him being executed. I doubt that. he was no sooner going to be executed then we were. Had alduin not shown up yes he would have died and so would we. so whats that say about us?

Tullius does too if things don't go his way....

I recall Tullius whining like a little girl if he doesn't get Riften because he really wanted some of the piss otherwise known as black briar mead.

something tells me all of their ale is just goblin piss from a cheap mug.

Ulfric made good use of the distraction caused by Alduin in the opening scene; when you see him in the tower, he's already free of his bonds, as are his soldiers, & he's taking charge of the situation. This, without knowing exactly what he's facing.

He had been in the field with his Stormcloaks, or he wouldn't have been captured. That he runs the war from Windhelm afterwards seems reasonable, as the rebellion would collapse without him.

Making demands when he first gets into the council meeting during "Season Unending" is just a negotiating ploy. Later, when Ulfric & Tullius bargain, Tullius's allies see that he will readily sacrifice them to attain his objectives. Ulfric has sown dissention in the Imperial ranks.

you sure he didnt just show up to the meeting drunk? i feel like thats more likely to be the case.

doubtful considering if you invite Ulfric last, you can actually walk all the way from Windhelm to High Hrothgar with him. He only stops along the way to shout at wild animals.

A fair point, but one could extend that line of reasoning to the Emperor and his supporters. Because at the end of the day, both made decisions that were arguably pretty lousy in hindsight.

I suspect the deaths of the Rift Guards probably had nothing to do with Ulfric's capture. That watchtower was far, far away from where Ulfric was captured.

You might want to look at the map.

The quickest route from Solitude to Eastmarch is from Solitude into Falkreath, cross the mountains past Helgen and down into the Rift. From there the tower lies right in the path that the Imperials would take if trying to set a trap for Ulfric who would be taking the main road from Riften to Windhelm and passing near Darkwater Crossing. The guards were warned the imperials were coming and slaughtered by them. Tullius then took the same route back to Imperial supported territory. (you wake up on this road during the wagon ride) to Helgen where he decided to kill Ulfric Stormcloak there. The thalmor (Elenwen) is even present in Helgen to see for herself that Tullius did in fact capture Ulfric. Of course she flees like a coward when Alduin shows up.

And why Helgen and not take Ulfric back to Solitude? He knew he'd never get Ulfric back there before the Jarl Lalia Law-Giver marched her men after him for openly attacking her hold, along with every available soldier in the stormcloak army hell bent on rescuing Ulfric. That's why he chose Helgen to kill Ulfric. It was the first walled city that could be defended in imperial supported territory should they be attacked. It was very defensable against anything but dragons.

Think about it, you really truly expect a stormcloak supporting hold like the Rift is going to stand by as imperials enter their hold and go after Ulfric?

You may want to look at the http://www.uesp.net/maps/srmap/srmap.shtml again. Shor's Watchtower, the Rift watch tower in question, is nowhere near the road to Falkreath Hold or any initially Imperial-aligned hold, heck, it sits near the Skyrim-Morrowind border. It also sits east of Northwind Summit, meaning that the guards there are not in any position to see anything going on to the west.

I didn't say Falkreath hold did I.

Ulfric was captured near Darkwater Crossing which is near the main road from RIFTEN to WINDHELM. Shor's Watchtower is along that road. Tullius's trap for Ulfric was very likely in that area.

You should still look again. Shor's Watchtower isn't anywhere near Darkwater Crossing or near the road there, beyond being on a road that links up with the road to Darkwater Crossing, and certainly in no place to see an Imperial ambush around Darkwater Crossing.

its the perfect place. We're not told now close to Darkwater Ulfric was captured. We're not even told why Ulfric was in the Rift to begin with. But look at the map. The closest border out of Skyrim is on the SAME road Shor's Watchtower is. So for those that say Ulfric may have been fleeing Skyrim. He would be on that road.

Who knows why Ulfric was away from Windhelm?

Probably a diplomatic meeting

I think all Ulfric wanted was an independent Skyrim. I think he did the right thing by starting a rebellion. In my eyes the rebellion was just to take back control of Skyrim not to become enemies with Imperials. If and when the Thalmor attack I believe Skyrim and the Empire will stand together to fight the Thalmor like they did in the great war. Ulfric is still a racist though.

But Darkwater is not on the main road between Riften and Windhelm. Had he been returning from Riften, he'd have taken the road along Shor's Stone and Shor's Watchtower, leading near Kynesgrove up to Windhelm. And I can't say I can see Ulfric actually fleeing Skyrim. More importantly, if Ulfric was captured near Darkwater Crossing, there would be no reason for Tullius to send soldiers all the way to Shor's Watchtower. Why the Legion attacked it, I don't know, but even if it was plausibly part of the ambush (which I maintain it isn't) we don't have any actual evidence that it had anything to do with Ulfric's capture.