I don't think Windhelm is in a bad state. But Tdroid already explained that.

Source: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ulfric_Stormcloak, http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Stormcloak

If I'm not mistaking, Ulfric became Jarl after his father's death. In 4E176, he retook the city of Markarth, but was imprisoned by the Empire. (The Markarth Incident) I can't exactly say how long he was imprisoned, but it was relatively short. His father died during his imprisonment. So depending on how short the prison time was (can't find information on that.), I assume he became Jarl between 4E176 to 4E180. So he would be Jarl for like 21 to 25 years.

Given that he joined the legion in 4E171, I assume he would be around 20 years back then. (If he would be older during that time, then Ulfric definitely looks young for his age.) So nowadays, I would guess he's like 50 years old?

I'm pretty bad at this stuff so I wouldn't be surprised if I overlooked something.

One thing I never got was why did Ulfric use the Voice in his duel with High King Torygg? I'm not sure if use the voice is "illegal" (although Greybeards told him not to use it) but it seems like an (unhonorable?) cheap dike thing to do in an honour duel epically since from what we told in-game by people on both sides Ulfric was clearly more skilled fighter and would have defeated him without it...

Gets me wondering if Ulfric killed Torygg the honourable way would the war have started?

In his words: "To prove a point."

In my opinion: "Eeh... dike move."

But I have a feeling that even if he didn't use the Thu'um, there still would have been a divide. Imperial interests and all that~

Can you elaborate?

Not sure what causes the change *I'm neutral on both characters*, but Shor's Watchtower can go both ways.

http://gifyu.com/images/2014-09-23_00004.jpg / http://gifyu.com/images/2014-09-23_00005.jpg

http://gifyu.com/images/2014-09-23_00003.jpg / http://gifyu.com/images/2014-09-23_00001.jpg

Edit: Waaaait a minute, forgot about the main quest change neeever mind.

I'd say it can be both. It certainly was overkill to kill Torygg with the Voice, and it certainly proves a point when Ulfric shows himself willing to use that power against his enemies.

Of course, most of the objections I see to it has more to do with Ulfric, more or less, being destined to win that fight to begin with, so it isn't really that relevant. More relevant, I think, has more to do with the intrinsic point of this sort of duel to begin with: It is not meant to be fair, but to gauge the strength and skill of the High King/Jarl being challenged. And it is a method of holding the High King accountable to his vassals.

One can argue with this system of values, but within this system, which Ulfric adheres to, his actions are consistent and fair. And I'd say it has a slight leg up on the Cyrodilic system, where the vassals have to resort to assassination or civil war outright to try to hold the Emperor accountable. It isn't perfect, but better than a monarch that cannot be legally challenged on their right to rule at all.

I agree to a degree, but I lean more to the first part about Ulfric winning even if he had not used the Thu'um and all that. I just feel it would have been more honourable if he hadn't done it, even if it still would have caused a divide. I feel he may have had more sympathizers if he had also won that way.

In the end, I look forward to how this will all turn out in the future title

I don't really understand you though. Why is using the Thu'um less honorable? Just because it is more powerful? Because it was unnecessary? You certainly can't argue that it was because Torygg didn't know about it, since Ulfric seems rather famous for using it against the Forsworn Uprising. If he didn't know one of his vassals had done something like that, he'd just be an idiot with no awareness of the events of even recent history.

It is a weapon, and a weapon that symbolizes a time when the Nords were a lot more powerful than they are now. It is too bad that Torygg wasn't among the few who knew the Thu'um, but that isn't a reason for Ulfric to hold any punches. Nothing indicates that the use of the Voice was in any way illegal within the parameters of the duel itself. And, since it is based in the old laws of Skyrim, it wouldn't even make sense for it to be illegal. Warleaders used to be Thu'um masters, after all.

So. Ulfric is not a good leader because.

-He is racist towards certain races... argonians being the only proven race so far

-Windhelm is an old stone city that could use some repair? Not really sure. It looks great, just a little cold.

-He challenged the High King to a duel to the death as Nordic tradition allowed and the High King accepted and lost.

-Because Ulfric used his voice, the thu'um to show that the nord culture when any nord could learn the voice were letting this culture get lost in imperialism.

-Because Ulfric winning the war places him in a pretty decent position to take the throne as High King.

Now my reasons the Empire is not a good leader.

-Has lost two emperors to assassinations in the last 200 years. Strangely enough people seem to hate Ulfric more for killing the High King then the Dark Brotherhood for killing the last Emperor.

-Has shown a complete and utter lack and disregard for its citizens and treats them no better then animals. (example your own unavoidable execution for simply being at the wrong place at the wrong time)

-Will without a second thought, allow countless lives to be lost for its own agenda.

-Has let the enemy occupy Skyrim and run unchecked and un controlled for over 20 years, kidnapping, torturing and killing citizens of Skyrim.

-Can't even show Ulfric the courtesy of sitting him down with the emperor and negotiating a truce.

-Tullius is so weak minded he can't even take accountability for his own actions and claims they knew it was the thalmor playing both sides all along. Well if you KNEW this why keep playing?

-For an being founded largely by nords, to then toss their own religion aside in the name of "peace" Peace for who? Not those in Skyrim. This would be like the US saying to ISIS/all terrorist groups who hate us. "Hey... you know if you stop attacking us we'll abolish Christianity. Oh, and while we're at it, You can as many military instillations as you want on our soil and we'll let you do what you want."

-Empires rise, empires fall. The empire is NOT the same one you loved during Oblivion so put down your nostalgia glasses and take a good look

-Tullius was so eager to kill Ulfric he didn't even bother trying to get him to Solitude for a fair trial. Did Ulfric deserve one? That's besides the point.

-Tullius was going to allow the beheading of a horse thief. Which is only a crime of a couple coins.

-Tullius is such a child constantly looking for approval he even dared to bring Elenwen with him to High Hrothgar!

-Elisif who has NO royal blood. NO military experience. NO leadership qualities. NO backbone, hell she hires you to secretly take her husband's horn to a talos shrine. Shows me she can't even set a good example. She is the Jarl because her husband just so happened to be the High King. She is no more fit to rule then the president's wife taking over if he died.

-The empire is nothing more then a shadow of its former glory which even then was simply a nation setting out to concur the known world and bring it under its rule. Sounds like a bully to me.

Long live the Empire!!!

I have a feeling we'll be both sitting in Sovngarde, sharing a barrel of mead and wondering where we both went wrong.

I'll drink to that, whether Imperial or Storm-Cloak at the end of the day we are all warriors fighting for valor and an honorable death.

Yup, I'll raise a mug to that.

And that's what I think makes the civil war debates so heated. We're just as passionate about it as the citizens of Skyrim.

I get pretty heated in the NCR vs Legion debates in the Fallout threads to.

well passion comes from conviction and belief.

It's slightly worrying people support the Legion...

I think that is the issue most people can't or don't understand why someone could be so passionate in their beliefs, towards an organization or anything for that matter that they themselves are against. (Also if you want to continue this talk PM me. I don't want to create a quote waterfall.)

*Facepalm*

I hate these kinds of Debates. Nord culture is one of conflict. This makes it simply likely that Ulfric's "liberation" will end badly andwar will always continue. I fail to see how Ulfric can unite a province that before the Empire, was basically killing itself.

I kinda see the empire as either roman, greek and more modern, the united kingdom. Ulfric united Skyrim as all the Jarls are loyal to him.

Oh sure, nords and elfs and Bretons battled in Skyrim but when Tiber came and concurred Skyrim do you think he did so without bloodshed?

Because of the way in which Ulfric used it. It is made clear that the only reason he learned the Thu'um was to gain power, going completely against the Greybeards teachings, using them for his own gain.

Shouting Torygg down was unnecessary, as has been said. He has years of experience in the field, killing Torygg by the sword would have been a more honourable battle, but instead, as I said in the past, it was like bringing a gun to a knife fight... oh, but my knife pierced his heart

Also, I never argued that Torygg didn't know, because it's obvious he knew Ulfric could shout, they all knew he could. They just didn't expect him to use it, due to expecting him to fight mono e mono, sword v sword, you know, a fair fight. Hence why I have much more respect for Torygg, he truly did face his death with honour.

It is a powerful weapon, one that symbolizes a time when the Nords abused it, going against their gods, hence their failure at Red Mountain. This lead to the Greybeards, whom without them the Thu'um would have become a lot art a very long time ago. Ulfric speaks of honour and tradition, yet he has broken said honour and tradition for his own means. He is a hypocrite.

That is why I feel that what Ulfric did was not honourable.

That does not mean I despise the man though, I just don't agree with his methods... and the racism.

Not saying that he did it without bloodshed, but think of it this way, without the Empire, perhaps the Nords would have killed themselves a long time ago, whereas With the Empire, the Nords have been relatively civil war-free for most of the time we known the game.

I love how Imperial supporters paint Ulfric as racist (using stretched definitions and throwaway comments by his enemies), only to go and base half their argument on racist thoughts. If the Nords are warlike and thus disqualified from home rule, what does that make a nation that warred with all others on the continent before it was even united?

sounds like you would support one world government.

I am just being honest. In the history of Tamriel, whenever Skyrim was independent when they needed a high king, at some point a war broke out. With the empire, no major conflict to be heard of. Seems logical that a race of warriors cannot keep peace in their own lands when they need to be united.

My best real-world comparison for the Civil war in Skyrim would have to be the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_War_(376%E2%80%93382).

The reason I say this is that the Republic of Rome (The Empire) allowed the Goths (Nords) to settle in Roman territory and offered to protect them from the Huns. But the Roman garrison in charge of caring for the Goths (Tullius's men in Skyrim) where in no shape to take care of themselves let alone the Goths so they let them out to hang. This angered the leader of the Goths; a man called Fritigern (Ulfric) as he felt his people where being alienated and cheated so he rallied the Gothic tribes together (Skyrim's cities) and headed out to war against the Romans.

Many people have argued that the Romans did the right thing, they were taking care of their own. Others have said that since the Roman government had gave the Goths asylum and offered to help them then they should of help up their end. Either way people's opinions vary on the topic and some are very passionate about their beliefs, is anyone wrong or right? We will never know.