People are reading way too much into this I think.

Yeah, the lady thinks this isnt goin anywhere.

*facepalms*

I know I said I'd bow out of this conversation, but ... really.

Ulfric's situation is instructive of one of the elements involved in mantling: to walk like the gods until the gods walk like you. As examples go it may not have the sheer, visceral oomph of, say, what Molag Bal himself demands of the player, but from a Nordic standpoint, Ulfric still has you beat up General Tullius instead of doing it himself, then says "Wait, let's use my sword for the coup-de-grace; it'll make for a better story that way!"

Ulfric didn't beat up Tullius himself. He let you do it. And now, for the sake of enhancing Ulfric's legend, Ulfric is saying "Let's use my sword." Tullius is being degraded here. Ulfric denies Tullius the honor of facing him in one on one combat, of being Ulfric's worthy foe. Instead, Ulfric is siccing you, the World-Eater-Slaying Dragonborn, on his enemy. And then Ulfric wants to claim credit for the kill by having his sword used for the final blow! Where's Tullius's chance to prove himself against the man who would be High King in single combat, as the story ought to read, if you truly care about making a new, true legend? Where's the proof of Ulfric's courage, his manliness, his righteousness in facing his foes in open combat himself? That legend Ulfric wants to forge? It's Tullius's legend too; the hero is measured by the challenge of his opponent!

But no. Ulfric gives you the honors of defeating his mortal foe, and yet aspires to be remembered as the man whose sword slew Tullius. Somebody is getting $}{4+ upon here, make no mistake. Tullius, for being denied his shot at Ulfric, and you, for being asked to share glory rightfully yours for Ulfric's ambitions.

Loranna

I read a couple of books in the library and I'm suddenly mantling Hermaeus Mora.
I give someone HIV and I'm mantling Peryite.
I destroy a city and I'm suddenly mantling Dagon... ok.

I mrder someone and im mantling Boethiah.

Can one truly mantle a Daedric Prince outside of their own realm?

Well, duh. Not very completely, but the echo is there.

Besides just saying "No, it isn't", would you please provide a counter argument to my case that Ulfric's treatment of Tullius qualifies as an act of needless degradation of an individual? I would like to see where you believe I have erred in my reasoning.

Loranna

What he means is that partaking in an action of a Daedric Prince does not mean mantling that Prince. The two would literally have to become indistinguishable in order to mantle.

It's the difference between being dominating, and being domination itself. The former involves degradating another, while the latter is degradation.

This extends to all cases of mantling:

being destructive =/= Mehrunes Dagon
being insane =/= Sheogorath (possible exception, since this is Sheo we're talking about here, and he doesn't go by the rules)
being beautiful =/= Dibella
being merciful =/= Stendarr
being disease spreading =/= Peryite (off topic, how is Peryite both neatness and pestilence? Sounds contradictory imo)
etc.

I would rather be killed by the Dragonborn than some racist [censored]. That's not as degrading as it could be. There was also no torture or [censored] going on, and Ulfric didnt tie Tullius' body to a horse and drag it around. Not sure if you understand how far needles degradation can go.

Pestilence can help keep the balance of nature. The parasitic spores in the rainforest keep insect populations from growing out of control. There are 7 billion humans on Earth and if another plague were to spread, it would keep our populations under control so we don't kill the world so fast. Disease can maintain order... it could work the other way though, which means he would want to control it, no?

Not sure, but it's a good point.

More generally, I agree that 'mantling' might be too strong a term- but the original observation was an interesting one. Can we all agree that Ulfric is entering Malog Bal's sphere, or enacting a mythic echo, or something? I might add that there is a strong 'tragic pawn of other powers despite/because of his pride' aspect to Ulfric's story. Some kind of mythic resonance lurks in his shadow.

"Walk like them until they walk like you" does not start at "they walk like you". Most people don't dive into the most extreme examples of a given mythic figure's purview right off the bat.

The original poster pointed out that Ulfric was still missing a few things to really mantle Molag Bal. Earlier in the thread, I agreed with the sentiment that, at best, Ulfric's act was a start, not the whole nine yards.

But ... being insane is the beginning of mantling Sheogorath. Being beautiful (in whatever manner best fits), or making beauty, is the start of mantling Dibella. Being merciful is the start of mantling Stendarr. If it helps, think of it in terms of 'you get what you pay for' - if you're only emulating the divine figure a little, then you don't align yourself all that strongly and you don't get much out of the effort, but the alignment still matters. You have to start somewhere.

And for Ulfric, his start, I am saying, was in denying his big enemy a fair fight while seeking to claim glory for the kill. You could even go further than that and say Ulfric's use of Thu'um in his duel with the old High King might as well - he doesn't even give the poor kid a chance to prove his manhood in battle, he just oneshots him and ganks him. Honorable by some peoples' standards but hardly by everyone's - including Nords - and a good way to make enemies of the boy's surviving kin and friends. There's a recipe for a blood feud, which will incite even more people to act in monstrous ways - a single monstrous act begetting others. Kinda fits Molag Bal, IMHO.

To reiterate, an act doesn't have to be the ULTIMATE EXAMPLE OF ULTIMATE MANTLING in order to put you on the path. Sometimes, those little deeds do end up adding up. Say it's not a full-fledged dive into mantling the King of [censored]. I agree! The OP agrees! But it is an example of how someone could get started along that path - and it's a legitimate example, I am arguing, since others seem inclined to dismiss the example, saying it's not severe enough in degree. The heck with that; there's a reason they call it a 'slippery slope'.

(Hopes that is the last she feels compelled to say on the matter)

Loranna

I guess, but I don't see Tullius' death as degrading. He was a soldier, and died a pretty honorable death... he didn't die in my game though. He even made Tullius' death more dignified by allowing the Dragonborn to do it.

So we all agree that Ulfric is beginning to mantle/enter the sphere of Molag Bal, but that he hasn't actually mantled Molag Bal yet.

I have to disagree about using the Thu'um to instagib the High King though. Sound more like Boethiah to me, the type of guy who would show no shame in showing up at the Blue Palace without any warning, using one of the most overpowered forms of magic in what is supposed to be a fair and formal duel, and high-tailing it before anyone can react.

At this point, it does come down to a matter of personal interpretation, aye. Some may feel that Tullius got a soldier's death and that is enough due consideration from Ulfric. The OP and I may disagree, but the game is cool in that it leaves matters open for personal interpretation.

And if you can make a case for the High King duel sounding more like Boethiah's style, then yes, that can work too. I'd be open to that interpretation. And yes, I feel confident in saying, we all agree that Ulfric is only starting to take on Molag Bal-esque traits. Recall, the OP even said that she felt, if someone called him on it, that Ulfric would be horrified to think his actions could have strengthened the sphere of the King of [censored].

...So, uh, I'm going to stick a placeholder for a pithy comment to be stuck here when I get around to thinking of one. Until then ... may the wind be at your backs? (No, seriously, however I may have sounded, it was fun discussing this matter. Thanks and love for everyone. We be the cool crowd.)

Loranna

Ulfric mantles Padhome

/thread.

Everybody mantles Padome because everybody changes... but Padhome isnt really a person is it? Can you mantle gravity?

"He is the pus in the wound. Oh, proper ones curl their noses, but it's pus that drinks foul humors and restores the blood. I worship Peryite, yes, because sometimes the world can only be cleansed by disease.

So says the priest of Peryite in Skyrim.

I completely disagree,
Though im a big empire supporter.
Molag'bal is the Daedric prince of "Domination", he didint attempt to show himself greater then tullius.
Also there is not "Honour" in war, only death and survival, Ulfrics actions were completely just in terms of war.
Ulfrics start of darkness began Long ago...

I wouldn't say that either incident fits Molag Bal. Ulfric is, at best, an underhanded fighter. Molag Bal is a transformational figure, whose love is as much a force of change as it is domination and corruption. Nothing Ulfric did to either the High King or Tullius incited those figures to change who they were, to betray who they were, for something worse. Neither of them bit secrets from Ulfric's spear, neither of them betrayed their alleigances, and neither of them were moved to "sin."
There's also a reason why the "slippery slope" is a fallacy.

That was why I mentioned the possibility that Ulfric's handling of the duel could instigate a blood feud between himself and the former High King's surviving kith and kin. Supposing some of the former Thanes decide to show Ulfric's supporters the same 'courtesy' Ulfric showed their King - or one-up Ulfric, as feuds tend to become destructive cycles of one-upmanship - then you have a situation where Ulfric accidentally moved others to betray themselves and sin by his actions. Feuds are messy and nasty business, after all. As for Tullius, replace 'kith and kin' with 'loyal former soldiers' and you get a situation where men, moved by grief and rage over Ulfric's treatment of their leader, refuse to accept the war is lost, and keep fighting - by any means necessary and against any of Ulfric's 'people' they can hit.

But as (far as I know) neither situation actually develops in the game - or simply doesn't have the time to develop - then Ulfric's use of Thu'um against the former High King, and use of the Dragonborn against Tullius, remain simply indications of some alarming trends in the man. That is, of course, if you consider the examples I've mentioned to be alarming trends.

Yes, it's reading possibilities into Ulfric's actions. I admit that. I'm just trying to demonstrate that Ulfric's actions could lead him down the path of emulating Molag Bal if he keeps this up - and he doesn't seem inclined to stop.



Ulfric: Yo, Tullius, you're so far beneath my notice I'm not even going to fight you myself, I'm going to sic my Dragonborn of Mass Destruction on you. And then I'll give the Dragonborn my sword and all of history will remember how Ulfric Stormcloak's blade was the one that purged the foul Imperials from Skyrim's soil! It'll be epic, I tell you.

Theoretical Dragonborn: Erm, that's probably not the best way to convince the Empire to actually drop the conflict; you're still gonna have to make peace with these people ...

Ulfric: EPIC!

Tullius and Theoretical Dragonborn: (Exchange long-suffering looks)

Theoretical Dragonborn: Ah well; let's get this over with. (Proceeds to pound Tullius down until he's crouching down, wishing he had gone up against half a dozen dragons instead)

But yeah, I can see Ulfric having gone bad long before this.

Loranna

Dragonborn: I've had enough killing for today

Ulfric: K, I'll do it.

To be fair, the whole Ulfric and Dragonborn dialogue should be read as though spoken by this guy: http://www.youtube.com/user/ItsJustSomeRandomGuy?feature=g-all-u#p/u/14/DfUusixTv-M

(Didn't these forums once allow for us to choose text for a link? Or am I missing something obvious?)

Loranna

This strikes me as a bit reaching, or even accidentally falling into a mephalian web. Swearing vengeance or stopping at nothing to get revenge isn't the same kind of thing Bal does to people. None of that is really oath-breaking in and of itself, or some powerful transgression against their own character, and isn't motivated by any sort of personal assault by Ulfric. YOur hypotheticals strike me as the logical consequence of Ulfric stumbling into the string of one of mephala's webs, the detonation of a hypothetical powder keg. However, when it comes to Ulfric's treatment of Tullius, it's worth noting that only three people ever saw what happened (and lived). A player character, Ulfric, and Ulfric's loyal general. No soldiers are going to know what really happened there, all anyone will know is the story Ulfric tells. Another thing is that Ulfric spared Elisif. While the Jarls and Thanes of the various other cities might want to martial for war against Ulfric, the fact is that they were all in Solitude during the final battle, when Ulfric claimed the city. Everyone except for Elisif and her thanes have been effectively captured. As for Elisif herself, she's always been a puppet. She has no strength or vigour in herself, and her naive incompetence was long tempered by her thanes. With her fealty sworn to Ulfric, the nobility of Solitude are neutralized. I wouldn't call it an alarming trend. Ulfric comes off from the beginning as someone whose underhanded in fighting, and who uses all the techniques available to him. He can't really be said to get worse either, and his character remains pretty stagnant during skyrim itself. I don't really see it happening. Ulfric's a dirty fighter with high political ambitions, that's much more in line with Boethiah then Molag Bal.

@loranna, when choosing text for a link, write out the text first, highlight it, then press the link button in the editor to create the link.