So, I ran across a beautiful example of mantling in action in Skyrim.

Watching my husband play through (we're taking turns.) I had played both quests, but he played them back-to-back, which made the correspondences very obvious.

First: there's an abandoned house in Markarth, in which, it turns out, is a shrine to Molag Bal. This shrine has been desecrated by a priest of Boethiah. The player is tasked by Molag Bal to go fetch the priest, then beat him until he submits to Molag Bal, then beat him to death with Molag Bal's mace while he crouches in submission.

Second: the final battle of the Civil War, Stormcloaks side. The player beats General Tullius into submission. Ulfric then asks the player to kill the crouching Tullius with his own sword "to make a cool story."

If you're unclear about what mantling is and how it operates, that's what it looks like. Oh, Ulfric is leaving out a few ingredients - he needs a source of power, for one thing. But he's got a very good start here to channeling the power of Molag Bal as the Tribunal once channeled the power of the Anticipations. All you really need to do is to do something vile and disgusting - just like Molag Bal would do it!

So then the abandoned house is representative of Skyrim. The priest is a desecrator of Molag Bal's house, just as the Empire is a desecrator of the house of the Nords (Skyrim).

Same thing happens in the Imperial side though. You beat Ulfric into submission, after which either you or Tullius executes Ulfric, though Ulfric would prefer the Dragonborn do it "to make a cool story."

All in all, I think Ulfric just wanted at least a cool ending to the war, regardless whether or not he was the victor. Don't think he was trying to do any mantling.

You don't have to intend to mantle, to actually mantle.

Loranna

There's an enormous difference between "please kill me" and "please kill this guy for me." It's not true that the same thing happens on the Imperial side. That would only be true if Tullius asked you to kill Ulfric.

You're right, though, that Ulfric has no idea what he's doing. He's missing one of the critical ingredients: CHIM. And I think he's still a decent enough guy that he'd be horrified to know that he's acting just like a demon. If, however, he were trying to do this, the next step on the path would be to force himself on Elisif. Then he needs a source of power - that elusive Stone of Snow-throat, whatever it might be.

The thing is that war itself requires some participation in Molag Bal's sphere. I don't think anyone is mantling Molag Bal (In fact Ulfric wants to liberate, not dominate and oppress, Skyrim). Ulfric forcing Tullius to surrender and then having you execute him isn't enough to mantle Molag Bal, that's just part of war. Now if he ruled over his people as a jerkass overlord and treated his own Nords as slaves, and [censored] and tortured everyone he saw and treated his own champions as dirt, then there may be grounds for mantling the Prince of Domination.

Again, you don't need to intend to mantle, to actually mantle.

Killing someone on the battlefield, while horrific, is part of war, and generally accepted as part of war's grim necessity. Capturing an enemy leader and executing him is, likewise, part of the accepted conduct of war.

Beating that enemy leader into submission first, and then killing said leader with his own sword, ventures into the territory of 'dominate and degrade' over which Molag Bal rules. Like Allie said, it's not the whole nine yards, but it's a start. At the least, it's a sign that Ulfric doesn't care about inciting his enemies to seek revenge for treating them with disrespect and dishonor - that's the sort of behavior that fuels blood feuds.

Loranna

I'll agree that Ulfric is beginning to mantle Molag Bal, but I certainly don't think Ulfric has finished mantling Molag Bal.

Ulfric (or the Dragonborn) does not kill Tullius with his own sword. Ulfric uses his own weapon, and Ulfric gives the dragonborn a weapon (stated to be Ulfric's) to kill Tullius with.

Absolutely. Just a beginning, which shows how one starts down such a road - at first not necessarily even consciously.

Pretty sure Ulfric states specifically "Do it with my sword," and afterwards, "I want you to keep my sword." It's more than just implied.

Loranna hasn't played the game yet and I was being confusing with my pronouns.

I'm running through Daggerfall while snatching up every bit of info I can get about Skyrim until the check clears. It's a very deprived life

But true, I haven't done the quest yet; I'll let those who have take the conversation from here. And claim that I was helpful as a 'cold reader' for Allie, if only to save a little face

(Agrees with blai5000's assessment of Ulfric's actual progress toward mantling Molag Bal)

Loranna

Wouldn't mantling require people to be unable to see the difference?

Such a small thing as this, which was only witnessed by one person does not equal mantling in my opinion. In fact I don't think it even comes close. People will not start considering Ulfric and Molag Bal the same entity, hell they wouldn't even know the same action was sort of carried out twice.

The Tribunal didn't exactly whack Nerevar in the public square. Tiber Septim didn't betray the Underking in public. That's not the way it works.

The Tribunal didn't mantle anyone. Tiber Septim did not kill the underking in public, true. But rumors existed and more important his story along with the other stories screamed Lorkhan. The people confused Tiber, Zurin and Wulfharth to be one person. Combine that with the actions taken and you have a mantling in action. I don't see how Ulfric will be confused by anybody.

I highly doubt that is anything more than coincidence, especially considering that those two acts were done for entirely different reasons. Molag Bal wanted the priest to submit to him before you killed him so that he would have claim over the priest's soul. Ulfric wanted Tullius dead for the obvious reasons related to the war and driving out the Empire. Nothing to do with souls or a torturous eternity.

I doubt this is going anywhere. Nice keeping your eyes open though.

I'm going to agree with Velorien that Ulfric's actions are only superficially similar to the molag bal questline. Molag Bal, in both his Skyrim and Oblivion questlines, asks the player to force another character into some sort of sin/trangression. In Skyrim, he wants the mortal he doesn't like to renounce his god (Boethiah) and swear fealty to Molag Bal. In Oblivion, Molag Bal wants a pacifist warrior to commit murder. In both cases, Molag Bal wants a mortal to commit a transgression against something they hold dear (faith in skyrim, vow of pacificism in oblivion). He doesn't just dominate, he transforms and converts his victim. ([censored] a woman to impart vampirism upon her, for example) This is not something that Ulfric did. While he did have his little party defeat and then murder tullius, Ulfric is principally concerned with the crafting of story. He doesn't do anything to convert or change Tullius, he uses the defeat of Tullius to create a narrative. He's transforming himself by creating the foundations for Nordic memory.

Ulfric was a Nord of course he wanted the war to make a good story. Nords always want their battles to be good stories.

Even if it's Ulfric on one knee, he asks you to do what makes a good story. He is intensely concerned with his life's connection to the mythic.

I only completed the Civil War once, and I used Ice Form on Ulfric and his Lieutenant. he was just laying on his back when he surrendered. I kinda glitched it and didn't get the full effect of his speech.

I hope I'm not the only one who misinterpreted the title and was braced for some every ...different monkeytruth.

I knew from the title that this wasn't going anywhere, at least not for me. I don't roll with monkeytruth and I don't think Ulfric even unintentionally mantled Bal.

I think the change Malog Bal renders on the victim in Skyrim quest is secondary to the role of the Dragonborn- certainly, as a player, you are made to feel pretty horrible. Which is the point: both Ulfric and the daedroth cause the Dragonborn to adopt the role of punisher/executioner to further their own interests.

I also think that coincidence and intent are irrelevent where mantling a daedroth is concerned. The CoC didn't exactly ask to become Sheo, and Malog Bal in particular is all about making mortals assume roles they reject. Sympathetic magic is all about the gesture.

I think what is done to the victim is more important than the predicament the player is put in. Plenty of Daedra (Mehrunes Dagon, Mephala, Boethiah, just to name a few) ask players to do horrible things which should offend their morality. It's hardly unique to Bal, and doesn't really reflect on his greater personality. Corrupting people, Domination and transformation, conversion, are much more reflective of the King of [censored].

Perhaps intent isn't relevant, but the fact is that Ulfric never forces a role change on Tullius. Ulfric wants to kill him, and offers the Dragonborn the chance to do it because it will better transform Ulfric himself in the memories of society. If Ulfric was moving in the vein of Molag Bal, he might try to get Tullius to renounce the empire and the Emperor, before striking Tullius down anyway.

I don't think this is extensive or identifiable enough to qualify as mantling. It's a single action, and a rather mundane one at that ("kill this dude in my stead"), rather than the long process of play-pretend that constitutes mantling.